to presenting great American lives,

國家肖像藝廊是一個

amazing people.

展示大美國生活和

And that's what it's about.

有趣人物的地方。

We use portraiture as a way to deliver those lives, but that's it.

就是關於這些。

And so I'm not going to talk about the painted portrait today.

我們用肖像圖，來塑像作為傳遞這個人物生命的手法，但僅是如此。

I'm going to talk about a program I started there,

今天我不打算談那些畫作。

which, from my point of view, is the proudest thing I did.

我今天準備去談談我正在開展的計劃，

I started to worry about the fact

這個計劃，從我的角度，我認為是我所做過最值得驕傲的事。

that a lot of people don't get their portraits painted anymore,

我開始擔心，事實上，

and they're amazing people,

有許多人並不再製作自己的肖像畫，

and we want to deliver them to future generations.

而他們是很有意思的人，

So, how do we do that?

我們又想把他們承傳到下一代。

And so I came up with the idea of the living self-portrait series.

那麼，我們可以做些什麼?

And the living self-portrait series was the idea of basically

於是，我開始構想一個活著的自我塑像系列。

my being a brush in the hand

這個活著的自我塑像系列基本是

of amazing people who would come and I would interview.

由我作為畫筆的把他們描畫出來，

And so what I'm going to do is, not so much give you

找來那些有意思的人，讓我來訪談。

the great hits of that program,

我想跟你說的，不是這個節目

as to give you this whole notion

能大熱起來的原因，

of how you encounter people in that kind of situation,

而是給你整個概念。

what you try to find out about them,

就是你怎樣在特定的處境之下遇見這個人，

and when people deliver and when they don't and why.

而你盡力的去發掘關於他們的東西，

Now, I had two preconditions.

那些他們想告訴你的，或是那些他們不想告訴你的，以及為什麼。

One was that they be American.

對於訪問對象，我是有兩個條件的。

That's just because, in the nature of the National Portrait Gallery,

第一，他們需要是美國人。

it's created to look at American lives.

這只是因為, 基本上, 這是國家肖像藝廊，

That was easy, but then I made the decision,

這個是用來探討美國的生活。

maybe arbitrary,

這個容易, 但我也做了一個決定,

that they needed to be people of a certain age,

或是隨便的想法,

which at that point, when I created this program,

他們需要是一個到了某個年紀的人,

seemed really old.

就在這裡, 我創造了這個節目,

Sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties.

看來很老的。

For obvious reasons, it doesn't seem that old anymore to me.

六十歲, 七十歲, 八十歲甚至是九十歲。

And why did I do that?

很明顯的, 其實對我來說, 這些人並不是很老。

Well, for one thing, we're a youth-obsessed culture.

我為什麼要這樣做?

And I thought really what we need is an elders program

好, 是因為, 我們活在一個執著於年青的文化裡,

to just sit at the feet of amazing people and hear them talk.

所以我認為我們需要一個給長者的節目,

But the second part of it -- and the older I get,

只是坐在大人物的腳下, 聽聽他們怎樣說。

the more convinced I am that that's true.

但第二部份, 當我愈來愈老的時候,

It's amazing what people will say when they know

我愈是認為,

how the story turned out.

當他們能說出自己的故事

That's the one advantage that older people have.

是怎樣發展出來的, 這是有趣的。

Well, they have other, little bit of advantage,

這也是老人家的其中一個優勢,

but they also have some disadvantages,

同時, 他們也有一點其他的優勢,

but the one thing they or we have is that

但他們也有點劣勢，

we've reached the point in life

但重點是, 當他們或我們

where we know how the story turned out.

到達了人生的某個階段,

So, we can then go back in our lives,

我們知道自己的故事怎樣發生。

if we've got an interviewer who gets that,

於是, 我們可以回到自己的生活,

and begin to reflect on how we got there.

如果剛好有一個訪談員能明白,

All of those accidents that wound up

並且能反映出我們怎樣會變成這樣。

creating the life narrative that we inherited.

總結過去所有的發生過的偶然

So, I thought okay, now,

創造了我們對生命的描述。

what is it going to take to make this work?

所以我覺得這個構思可以了,

There are many kinds of interviews. We know them.

我可以做些什麼讓它變得可行?

There are the journalist interviews,

我們都知道這裡有許多不同的訪談,

which are the interrogation that is expected.

有新聞性的訪談,

This is somewhat against resistance

會冀望是尖銳的訪問形式。

and caginess on the part of the interviewee.

就是想著怎樣突破被訪者

Then there's the celebrity interview,

的抗拒和戒備。

where it's more important who's asking the question than who answers.

接著, 也有些名人的訪談,

That's Barbara Walters and others like that, and we like that.

誰人做訪問者去問問題, 比起誰人去答問題更重要。

That's Frost-Nixon, where Frost seems to be as important

就好像 Barbara Walters 和其他的, 我們都喜歡的。

as Nixon in that process.

有Frost 跟Nixon 的訪問, 過程中好像Frost 比起 Nixon

Fair enough.

更重要。

But I wanted interviews that were different.

這就够了。

I wanted to be, as I later thought of it, empathic,

但我想有一個跟這些不一樣的訪談。

which is to say, to feel what they wanted to say

我想的是, 我後來覺得, 應該是有同理心吧,

and to be an agent of their self-revelation.

意思是, 能感受到他們想說的東西

By the way, this was always done in public.

作為他們自我表達的代理人。

This was not an oral history program.

這好像經常在公眾節目中發生,

This was all about 300 people sitting at the feet of this individual,

但這不是口述歷史節目,

and having me be the brush in their self-portrait.

這是大約有三百人, 坐在這個人的腳下,

Now, it turns out that I was pretty good at that.

用我作為這幅自我肖像的畫筆,

I didn't know it coming into it.

現在, 我的技術已經變得了頗為精湛,

And the only reason I really know that

我也不知道怎樣變成的。

is because of one interview I did with Senator William Fulbright,

我只知道唯一的原由

and that was six months after he'd had a stroke.

是因為, 有一次我跟William Fullbright 參議員做了一個訪問,

And he had never appeared in public since that point.

這是他中風後六個月的事。

This was not a devastating stroke,

他自從中風後一直沒有公開露面,

but it did affect his speaking and so forth.

這不是一個嚴重的中風,

And I thought it was worth a chance,

但卻影響了他的說話能力,

he thought it was worth a chance,

但我卻認為值得一試,

and so we got up on the stage,

他也認為值得一試,

and we had an hour conversation about his life,

所以我們一起走上台。

and after that a woman rushed up to me,

我們大概談他的生活談了一小時,

essentially did,

接著, 有一個女人走過來,

and she said, "Where did you train as a doctor?"

就是這樣的,

And I said, "I have no training as a doctor. I never claimed that."

她說: 『你在那裡被訓練成當醫生?』

And she said, "Well, something very weird was happening.

我說: 『我從來沒有受過醫生的訓練, 我也沒有這樣自稱過。』

When he started a sentence, particularly

她說: 『但有些很奇怪的東西發生了。

in the early parts of the interview,

當他開始一句說話時, 尤其是

and paused, you gave him the word,

在早段的訪問之中,

the bridge to get to the end of the sentence,

他停下來, 你就給他一個字,

and by the end of it,

讓他連結句子的尾段,

he was speaking complete sentences on his own."

最後,

I didn't know what was going on,

他可以自己完整的說出了整句句子。』

but I was so part of the process of getting that out.

我並不知道發生什麼事,

So I thought, okay, fine, I've got empathy,

因為我投入了這個過程。

or empathy, at any rate,

於是, 我想, 好的, 我是能够體諒他的,

is what's critical to this kind of interview.

或是同情, 在不同的層次裡,

But then I began to think of other things.

這是這類訪問最重要的東西。

Who makes a great interview in this context?

跟著, 我開始想著其他事,

It had nothing to do with their intellect,

在這樣的背景之中, 誰可以做偉大的訪談?

the quality of their intellect.

這大概跟智力沒有什麼關係,

Some of them were very brilliant,

也跟智力的質素沒有什麼關係,

some of them were,

有些人非常出色,

you know, ordinary people who would never claim to be intellectuals,

有些人,

but it was never about that.

你知呢, 平常人很少會自稱是智者,

It was about their energy.

這不是智力的問題,

It's energy that creates extraordinary interviews

這是有關能量的。

and extraordinary lives.

是那種能創造非一般訪談

I'm convinced of it.

以及非一般生命的能量,

And it had nothing to do with the energy of being young.

我是認同的。

These were people through their 90s.

這跟年輕的能量沒有關係,

In fact, the first person I interviewed

有些人活到了九十歲。

was George Abbott, who was 97,

事實上, 我訪問的第一個人

and Abbott was filled with the life force --

George Abbott, 他已經九十七歲了，

I guess that's the way I think about it -- filled with it.

但他仍然充滿生命的力量

And so he filled the room,

我就是這樣想著, 充滿力量。

and we had an extraordinary conversation.

而他也讓整個房間充滿了力量,

He was supposed to be the toughest interview that anybody would ever do

於是, 我們有了很不一樣的對談。

because he was famous for being silent,

他原本是被認為最難纏的訪問對象

for never ever saying anything

因為他最出名的是保持沈默,

except maybe a word or two.

他可以一直不說話

And, in fact, he did wind up opening up --

除了可能是一個字, 兩個字。

by the way, his energy is evidenced in other ways.

但事實上, 他最後竟然可以開放自己 --

He subsequently got married again at 102,

其實, 從其他的方面, 我們可以窺見他的能量。

so he, you know, he had a lot of the life force in him.

他接著在102歲高齡結婚,

But after the interview, I got a call,

所以, 你也會知道, 他其實是有許多生命的力量。

very gruff voice, from a woman.

但這個訪問 之後, 我收到一個電話,

I didn't know who she was,

一把十分粗暴的聲音, 是一個女人來的,

and she said, "Did you get George Abbott to talk?"

我並不知道她是誰,

And I said, "Yeah. Apparently I did."

她說: 『你讓George Abbott說話?』

And she said, "I'm his old girlfriend, Maureen Stapleton,

我說: 『對, 明顯的, 我有。』

and I could never do it."

她說: 『我是他的舊女友, Maureen Stapleton，

And then she made me go up with the tape of it

但我永遠都做不到。』

and prove that George Abbott actually could talk.

她後來讓我聽了一個錄音帶

So, you know, you want energy,

証明George Abbott 的確是能說話的。

you want the life force,

所以, 你需要能量,

but you really want them also to think

你需要生命的力量,

that they have a story worth sharing.

但你更需要他們同時也認為

The worst interviews that you can ever have

自己有一個值得分享的故事。

are with people who are modest.

我做過最差的訪問

Never ever get up on a stage with somebody who's modest,

是跟那些謙虛的人做的訪問。

because all of these people have been assembled

永遠不要跟一個謙虛的人走上講台

to listen to them, and they sit there and they say,

因為當所有人聚集在那裡

"Aw, shucks, it was an accident."

準備去聽他們的故事時, 他們坐在那裡說,

There's nothing that ever happens that justifies

『啊, 沒什麼的, 這只是一個意外。』

people taking good hours of the day to be with them.

這些沒有什麼的事情, 其實並不值得

The worst interview I ever did: William L. Shirer.

別人用上那天最好的時間在他們身上。

The journalist who did "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich."

我做過更壞的訪問: WIlliam L. Shirer

This guy had met Hitler and Gandhi within six months,

那個做了『第三帝國的起落』的記者

and every time I'd ask him about it, he'd say, "Oh, I just happened to be there.

他曾經在六個月之內遇見過希特勒和甘地,

Didn't matter." Whatever.

每次我問有關這個部份, 他都會說: 『啊, 我只有剛好就在那裡

Awful.

沒有什麼的.....』諸如此類...

I never would ever agree to interview a modest person.

可怕!

They have to think that they did something

我永遠不會跟那些謙虛平庸的人做訪問。

and that they want to share it with you.

他們需要覺得自己做了一些

But it comes down, in the end,

想跟別人分享的東西。

to how do you get through all the barriers we have.

然後, 接下來

All of us are public and private beings,

就是怎樣去處理我們面前的障礙。

and if all you're going to get from the interviewee is their public self,

我們都是活在私人和公眾的空間之中,

there's no point in it.

如果你只想讓別人看見被訪者的公眾形象,

It's pre-programmed. It's infomercial,

這是沒有意思的。

and we all have infomercials about our lives.

因為這是預定的。這是代言的廣告,

We know the great lines, we know the great moments,

我們都會有自己人生的代言廣告,

we know what we're not going to share,

我們會知道那些偉大的台詞, 那些感動的時刻,

and the point of this was not to embarrass anybody.

我們也知道有些什麼是不會分享的,

This wasn't -- and some of you will remember

以及為了不讓別人尷尬而點到即止。

Mike Wallace's old interviews --

但這不是----也許有些人都會記得

tough, aggressive and so forth. They have their place.

Mike Wallace' 的舊訪問---

I was trying to get them to say what they probably wanted to say,

強硬, 進取等等。這些訪談也有一定的地位。

to break out of their own cocoon of the public self,

我就儘量去讓他們說一些也許他們想說的東西，

and the more public they had been,

去突破他們那些公眾認知形象背後的包袱，

the more entrenched that person, that outer person was.

如果他們愈是公眾人物，

And let me tell you at once the worse moment and the best moment

這種公眾的束縳便愈是根深蒂固。

that happened in this interview series.

讓我告訴你, 在整個訪問系列裡

It all has to do with that shell that most of us have,

我最壞和最好的時刻。

and particularly certain people.

這些都跟我們的自我保護外殼有關的，

There's an extraordinary woman named Clare Boothe Luce.

尤其是一些特定的人。

It'll be your generational determinant

這裡有個很不一般的女人名叫 Clare Boothe Luce。

as to whether her name means much to you.

那就說出你生於什麼年代

She did so much. She was a playwright.

如果她的名字對你來說是很熟悉的。

She did an extraordinary play called "The Women."

她做了許多事, 她是一位劇作家。

She was a congresswoman

她曾寫下一個十分出色的劇作, 名叫《女人們》

when there weren't very many congresswomen.

她也是一位眾議員

She was editor of Vanity Fair,

當年並不很多女性的眾議員。

one of the great phenomenal women of her day.

她是雜誌Vanity Fair 的編輯,

And, incidentally, I call her

她是一位在她的年代裡十分經典的女性。

the Eleanor Roosevelt of the Right.

有一次, 偶然的, 我叫她做

She was sort of adored on the Right

右派的羅斯福夫人。

the way Eleanor Roosevelt was on the Left.

她是被右派所推崇

And, in fact, when we did the interview --

就好像羅斯福夫人被左派所推崇的一樣。

I did the living self-portrait with her --

事實上, 我們做了這個訪談,

there were three former directors of the CIA

我也給她做了活著的自我肖像,

basically sitting at her feet,

當時三個前中央情報局的指揮官

just enjoying her presence.

坐在她的腳下,

And I thought, this is going to be a piece of cake,

在欣賞她的訪問。

because I always have preliminary talks with these people

我在想, 這應該一切都會順利得易如反掌,

for just maybe 10 or 15 minutes.

因為, 我通常都會跟受訪者有些熱身的閒聊

We never talk before that because if you talk before,

大概是十至十五分鐘。

you don't get it on the stage.

我們並沒有說到正題, 因為如果你預先談過了,

So she and I had a delightful conversation.

你便有不能把正題再次放在台上了。

We were on the stage and then --

我跟她有一段愉悅的對話。

by the way, spectacular.

接著我們走上台前--

It was all part of Clare Boothe Luce's look.

是那種, 很壯觀的樣子。

She was in a great evening gown.

因為這是Clare Boothe Luce 看起來的模樣。

She was 80, almost that day of the interview,

她穿著一襲晚裝。

and there she was and there I was,

在訪問的那天, 她差不多八十歲了

and I just proceeded into the questions.

她在這裡, 我在那裡,

And she stonewalled me. It was unbelievable.

我只是開始去問問題。

Anything that I would ask, she would turn around, dismiss,

她竟然在戒備著我, 這簡直是難以置信!

and I was basically up there -- any of you

我問的任何問題, 她都會迴避, 然後略過,

in the moderate-to-full entertainment world

而我就在那裡, 好像大家一樣

know what it is to die onstage.

在這個娛樂至上的世界

And I was dying. She was absolutely not giving me a thing.

知道什麼是死在台上。

And I began to wonder what was going on,

我已經快要死去, 但她仍是決絕的不給我任何東西。

and you think while you talk,

我開始去思考究竟發生了什麼事,

and basically, I thought, I got it.

一直在說, 一直在想,

When we were alone, I was her audience.

後來,我想, 我知道了。

Now I'm her competitor for the audience.

當只有我們的時候, 我是她的聽眾。

That's the problem here, and she's fighting me for that,

但在台上, 我便和她在爭奪聽眾。

and so then I asked her a question --

這就是問題, 她在跟我爭奪,

I didn't know how I was going to get out of it --

跟著, 我問了她一個問題--

I asked her a question about her days as a playwright,

我其實並不知道我該怎樣從這處境之中逃脫--

and again, characteristically,

我問了她一個她過去做劇作家的問題,

instead of saying, "Oh yes, I was a playwright, and this is what blah blah blah,"

再次的,很經典的,

she said, "Oh, playwright. Everybody knows I was a playwright.

她沒有說: 『啊對, 我是劇作家........什麼..... 什麼......』

Most people think that I was an actress. I was never an actress."

她卻說: 『啊, 劇作家, 每個人都知道我是劇作家,

But I hadn't asked that, and then she went off on a tear,

很多人都以為我是演員, 我從來沒做過演員。』

and she said, "Oh, well, there was that one time that I was an actress.

但我還沒有問及, 她卻竟然流下淚來,

It was for a charity in Connecticut when I was a congresswoman,

她說, 『對, 曾經有一次, 我是一個演員,

and I got up there," and she went on and on, "And then I got on the stage."

那次只是為Connecticut 做一個慈善的演員, 我那時還是眾議員,

And then she turned to me and said,

我上了台』, 她繼續說: 『 我上了台。』

"And you know what those young actors did?

接著, 她轉向對我說,

They upstaged me." And she said, "Do you know what that is?"

『你知道當時那些年青演員做些什麼?

Just withering in her contempt.

他們把我的風頭都搶走了。』然後她說: 『你知道什麼是搶風頭嗎?』