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  • The National Portrait Gallery is the place dedicated

    譯者: Suet Mei Hau 審譯者: Shelley Krishna Tsang

  • to presenting great American lives,

    國家肖像藝廊是一個

  • amazing people.

    展示大美國生活和

  • And that's what it's about.

    有趣人物的地方。

  • We use portraiture as a way to deliver those lives, but that's it.

    就是關於這些。

  • And so I'm not going to talk about the painted portrait today.

    我們用肖像圖,來塑像作為傳遞這個人物生命的手法,但僅是如此。

  • I'm going to talk about a program I started there,

    今天我不打算談那些畫作。

  • which, from my point of view, is the proudest thing I did.

    我今天準備去談談我正在開展的計劃,

  • I started to worry about the fact

    這個計劃,從我的角度,我認為是我所做過最值得驕傲的事。

  • that a lot of people don't get their portraits painted anymore,

    我開始擔心,事實上,

  • and they're amazing people,

    有許多人並不再製作自己的肖像畫,

  • and we want to deliver them to future generations.

    而他們是很有意思的人,

  • So, how do we do that?

    我們又想把他們承傳到下一代。

  • And so I came up with the idea of the living self-portrait series.

    那麼,我們可以做些什麼?

  • And the living self-portrait series was the idea of basically

    於是,我開始構想一個活著的自我塑像系列。

  • my being a brush in the hand

    這個活著的自我塑像系列基本是

  • of amazing people who would come and I would interview.

    由我作為畫筆的把他們描畫出來,

  • And so what I'm going to do is, not so much give you

    找來那些有意思的人,讓我來訪談。

  • the great hits of that program,

    我想跟你說的,不是這個節目

  • as to give you this whole notion

    能大熱起來的原因,

  • of how you encounter people in that kind of situation,

    而是給你整個概念。

  • what you try to find out about them,

    就是你怎樣在特定的處境之下遇見這個人,

  • and when people deliver and when they don't and why.

    而你盡力的去發掘關於他們的東西,

  • Now, I had two preconditions.

    那些他們想告訴你的,或是那些他們不想告訴你的,以及為什麼。

  • One was that they be American.

    對於訪問對象,我是有兩個條件的。

  • That's just because, in the nature of the National Portrait Gallery,

    第一,他們需要是美國人。

  • it's created to look at American lives.

    這只是因為, 基本上, 這是國家肖像藝廊,

  • That was easy, but then I made the decision,

    這個是用來探討美國的生活。

  • maybe arbitrary,

    這個容易, 但我也做了一個決定,

  • that they needed to be people of a certain age,

    或是隨便的想法,

  • which at that point, when I created this program,

    他們需要是一個到了某個年紀的人,

  • seemed really old.

    就在這裡, 我創造了這個節目,

  • Sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties.

    看來很老的。

  • For obvious reasons, it doesn't seem that old anymore to me.

    六十歲, 七十歲, 八十歲甚至是九十歲。

  • And why did I do that?

    很明顯的, 其實對我來說, 這些人並不是很老。

  • Well, for one thing, we're a youth-obsessed culture.

    我為什麼要這樣做?

  • And I thought really what we need is an elders program

    好, 是因為, 我們活在一個執著於年青的文化裡,

  • to just sit at the feet of amazing people and hear them talk.

    所以我認為我們需要一個給長者的節目,

  • But the second part of it -- and the older I get,

    只是坐在大人物的腳下, 聽聽他們怎樣說。

  • the more convinced I am that that's true.

    但第二部份, 當我愈來愈老的時候,

  • It's amazing what people will say when they know

    我愈是認為,

  • how the story turned out.

    當他們能說出自己的故事

  • That's the one advantage that older people have.

    是怎樣發展出來的, 這是有趣的。

  • Well, they have other, little bit of advantage,

    這也是老人家的其中一個優勢,

  • but they also have some disadvantages,

    同時, 他們也有一點其他的優勢,

  • but the one thing they or we have is that

    但他們也有點劣勢,

  • we've reached the point in life

    但重點是, 當他們或我們

  • where we know how the story turned out.

    到達了人生的某個階段,

  • So, we can then go back in our lives,

    我們知道自己的故事怎樣發生。

  • if we've got an interviewer who gets that,

    於是, 我們可以回到自己的生活,

  • and begin to reflect on how we got there.

    如果剛好有一個訪談員能明白,

  • All of those accidents that wound up

    並且能反映出我們怎樣會變成這樣。

  • creating the life narrative that we inherited.

    總結過去所有的發生過的偶然

  • So, I thought okay, now,

    創造了我們對生命的描述。

  • what is it going to take to make this work?

    所以我覺得這個構思可以了,

  • There are many kinds of interviews. We know them.

    我可以做些什麼讓它變得可行?

  • There are the journalist interviews,

    我們都知道這裡有許多不同的訪談,

  • which are the interrogation that is expected.

    有新聞性的訪談,

  • This is somewhat against resistance

    會冀望是尖銳的訪問形式。

  • and caginess on the part of the interviewee.

    就是想著怎樣突破被訪者

  • Then there's the celebrity interview,

    的抗拒和戒備。

  • where it's more important who's asking the question than who answers.

    接著, 也有些名人的訪談,

  • That's Barbara Walters and others like that, and we like that.

    誰人做訪問者去問問題, 比起誰人去答問題更重要。

  • That's Frost-Nixon, where Frost seems to be as important

    就好像 Barbara Walters 和其他的, 我們都喜歡的。

  • as Nixon in that process.

    有Frost 跟Nixon 的訪問, 過程中好像Frost 比起 Nixon

  • Fair enough.

    更重要。

  • But I wanted interviews that were different.

    這就够了。

  • I wanted to be, as I later thought of it, empathic,

    但我想有一個跟這些不一樣的訪談。

  • which is to say, to feel what they wanted to say

    我想的是, 我後來覺得, 應該是有同理心吧,

  • and to be an agent of their self-revelation.

    意思是, 能感受到他們想說的東西

  • By the way, this was always done in public.

    作為他們自我表達的代理人。

  • This was not an oral history program.

    這好像經常在公眾節目中發生,

  • This was all about 300 people sitting at the feet of this individual,

    但這不是口述歷史節目,

  • and having me be the brush in their self-portrait.

    這是大約有三百人, 坐在這個人的腳下,

  • Now, it turns out that I was pretty good at that.

    用我作為這幅自我肖像的畫筆,

  • I didn't know it coming into it.

    現在, 我的技術已經變得了頗為精湛,

  • And the only reason I really know that

    我也不知道怎樣變成的。

  • is because of one interview I did with Senator William Fulbright,

    我只知道唯一的原由

  • and that was six months after he'd had a stroke.

    是因為, 有一次我跟William Fullbright 參議員做了一個訪問,

  • And he had never appeared in public since that point.

    這是他中風後六個月的事。

  • This was not a devastating stroke,

    他自從中風後一直沒有公開露面,

  • but it did affect his speaking and so forth.

    這不是一個嚴重的中風,

  • And I thought it was worth a chance,

    但卻影響了他的說話能力,

  • he thought it was worth a chance,

    但我卻認為值得一試,

  • and so we got up on the stage,

    他也認為值得一試,

  • and we had an hour conversation about his life,

    所以我們一起走上台。

  • and after that a woman rushed up to me,

    我們大概談他的生活談了一小時,

  • essentially did,

    接著, 有一個女人走過來,

  • and she said, "Where did you train as a doctor?"

    就是這樣的,

  • And I said, "I have no training as a doctor. I never claimed that."

    她說: 『你在那裡被訓練成當醫生?』

  • And she said, "Well, something very weird was happening.

    我說: 『我從來沒有受過醫生的訓練, 我也沒有這樣自稱過。』

  • When he started a sentence, particularly

    她說: 『但有些很奇怪的東西發生了。

  • in the early parts of the interview,

    當他開始一句說話時, 尤其是

  • and paused, you gave him the word,

    在早段的訪問之中,

  • the bridge to get to the end of the sentence,

    他停下來, 你就給他一個字,

  • and by the end of it,

    讓他連結句子的尾段,

  • he was speaking complete sentences on his own."

    最後,

  • I didn't know what was going on,

    他可以自己完整的說出了整句句子。』

  • but I was so part of the process of getting that out.

    我並不知道發生什麼事,

  • So I thought, okay, fine, I've got empathy,

    因為我投入了這個過程。

  • or empathy, at any rate,

    於是, 我想, 好的, 我是能够體諒他的,

  • is what's critical to this kind of interview.

    或是同情, 在不同的層次裡,

  • But then I began to think of other things.

    這是這類訪問最重要的東西。

  • Who makes a great interview in this context?

    跟著, 我開始想著其他事,

  • It had nothing to do with their intellect,

    在這樣的背景之中, 誰可以做偉大的訪談?

  • the quality of their intellect.

    這大概跟智力沒有什麼關係,

  • Some of them were very brilliant,

    也跟智力的質素沒有什麼關係,

  • some of them were,

    有些人非常出色,

  • you know, ordinary people who would never claim to be intellectuals,

    有些人,

  • but it was never about that.

    你知呢, 平常人很少會自稱是智者,

  • It was about their energy.

    這不是智力的問題,

  • It's energy that creates extraordinary interviews

    這是有關能量的。

  • and extraordinary lives.

    是那種能創造非一般訪談

  • I'm convinced of it.

    以及非一般生命的能量,

  • And it had nothing to do with the energy of being young.

    我是認同的。

  • These were people through their 90s.

    這跟年輕的能量沒有關係,

  • In fact, the first person I interviewed

    有些人活到了九十歲。

  • was George Abbott, who was 97,

    事實上, 我訪問的第一個人

  • and Abbott was filled with the life force --

    George Abbott, 他已經九十七歲了,

  • I guess that's the way I think about it -- filled with it.

    但他仍然充滿生命的力量

  • And so he filled the room,

    我就是這樣想著, 充滿力量。

  • and we had an extraordinary conversation.

    而他也讓整個房間充滿了力量,

  • He was supposed to be the toughest interview that anybody would ever do

    於是, 我們有了很不一樣的對談。

  • because he was famous for being silent,

    他原本是被認為最難纏的訪問對象

  • for never ever saying anything

    因為他最出名的是保持沈默,

  • except maybe a word or two.

    他可以一直不說話

  • And, in fact, he did wind up opening up --

    除了可能是一個字, 兩個字。

  • by the way, his energy is evidenced in other ways.

    但事實上, 他最後竟然可以開放自己 --

  • He subsequently got married again at 102,

    其實, 從其他的方面, 我們可以窺見他的能量。

  • so he, you know, he had a lot of the life force in him.

    他接著在102歲高齡結婚,

  • But after the interview, I got a call,

    所以, 你也會知道, 他其實是有許多生命的力量。

  • very gruff voice, from a woman.

    但這個訪問 之後, 我收到一個電話,

  • I didn't know who she was,

    一把十分粗暴的聲音, 是一個女人來的,

  • and she said, "Did you get George Abbott to talk?"

    我並不知道她是誰,

  • And I said, "Yeah. Apparently I did."

    她說: 『你讓George Abbott說話?』

  • And she said, "I'm his old girlfriend, Maureen Stapleton,

    我說: 『對, 明顯的, 我有。』

  • and I could never do it."

    她說: 『我是他的舊女友, Maureen Stapleton,

  • And then she made me go up with the tape of it

    但我永遠都做不到。』

  • and prove that George Abbott actually could talk.

    她後來讓我聽了一個錄音帶

  • So, you know, you want energy,

    証明George Abbott 的確是能說話的。

  • you want the life force,

    所以, 你需要能量,

  • but you really want them also to think

    你需要生命的力量,

  • that they have a story worth sharing.

    但你更需要他們同時也認為

  • The worst interviews that you can ever have

    自己有一個值得分享的故事。

  • are with people who are modest.

    我做過最差的訪問

  • Never ever get up on a stage with somebody who's modest,

    是跟那些謙虛的人做的訪問。

  • because all of these people have been assembled

    永遠不要跟一個謙虛的人走上講台

  • to listen to them, and they sit there and they say,

    因為當所有人聚集在那裡

  • "Aw, shucks, it was an accident."

    準備去聽他們的故事時, 他們坐在那裡說,

  • There's nothing that ever happens that justifies

    『啊, 沒什麼的, 這只是一個意外。』

  • people taking good hours of the day to be with them.

    這些沒有什麼的事情, 其實並不值得

  • The worst interview I ever did: William L. Shirer.

    別人用上那天最好的時間在他們身上。

  • The journalist who did "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich."

    我做過更壞的訪問: WIlliam L. Shirer

  • This guy had met Hitler and Gandhi within six months,

    那個做了『第三帝國的起落』的記者

  • and every time I'd ask him about it, he'd say, "Oh, I just happened to be there.

    他曾經在六個月之內遇見過希特勒和甘地,

  • Didn't matter." Whatever.

    每次我問有關這個部份, 他都會說: 『啊, 我只有剛好就在那裡

  • Awful.

    沒有什麼的.....』諸如此類...

  • I never would ever agree to interview a modest person.

    可怕!

  • They have to think that they did something

    我永遠不會跟那些謙虛平庸的人做訪問。

  • and that they want to share it with you.

    他們需要覺得自己做了一些

  • But it comes down, in the end,

    想跟別人分享的東西。

  • to how do you get through all the barriers we have.

    然後, 接下來

  • All of us are public and private beings,

    就是怎樣去處理我們面前的障礙。

  • and if all you're going to get from the interviewee is their public self,

    我們都是活在私人和公眾的空間之中,

  • there's no point in it.

    如果你只想讓別人看見被訪者的公眾形象,

  • It's pre-programmed. It's infomercial,

    這是沒有意思的。

  • and we all have infomercials about our lives.

    因為這是預定的。這是代言的廣告,

  • We know the great lines, we know the great moments,

    我們都會有自己人生的代言廣告,

  • we know what we're not going to share,

    我們會知道那些偉大的台詞, 那些感動的時刻,

  • and the point of this was not to embarrass anybody.

    我們也知道有些什麼是不會分享的,

  • This wasn't -- and some of you will remember

    以及為了不讓別人尷尬而點到即止。

  • Mike Wallace's old interviews --

    但這不是----也許有些人都會記得

  • tough, aggressive and so forth. They have their place.

    Mike Wallace' 的舊訪問---

  • I was trying to get them to say what they probably wanted to say,

    強硬, 進取等等。這些訪談也有一定的地位。

  • to break out of their own cocoon of the public self,

    我就儘量去讓他們說一些也許他們想說的東西,

  • and the more public they had been,

    去突破他們那些公眾認知形象背後的包袱,

  • the more entrenched that person, that outer person was.

    如果他們愈是公眾人物,

  • And let me tell you at once the worse moment and the best moment

    這種公眾的束縳便愈是根深蒂固。

  • that happened in this interview series.

    讓我告訴你, 在整個訪問系列裡

  • It all has to do with that shell that most of us have,

    我最壞和最好的時刻。

  • and particularly certain people.

    這些都跟我們的自我保護外殼有關的,

  • There's an extraordinary woman named Clare Boothe Luce.

    尤其是一些特定的人。

  • It'll be your generational determinant

    這裡有個很不一般的女人名叫 Clare Boothe Luce。

  • as to whether her name means much to you.

    那就說出你生於什麼年代

  • She did so much. She was a playwright.

    如果她的名字對你來說是很熟悉的。

  • She did an extraordinary play called "The Women."

    她做了許多事, 她是一位劇作家。

  • She was a congresswoman

    她曾寫下一個十分出色的劇作, 名叫《女人們》

  • when there weren't very many congresswomen.

    她也是一位眾議員

  • She was editor of Vanity Fair,

    當年並不很多女性的眾議員。

  • one of the great phenomenal women of her day.

    她是雜誌Vanity Fair 的編輯,

  • And, incidentally, I call her

    她是一位在她的年代裡十分經典的女性。

  • the Eleanor Roosevelt of the Right.

    有一次, 偶然的, 我叫她做

  • She was sort of adored on the Right

    右派的羅斯福夫人。

  • the way Eleanor Roosevelt was on the Left.

    她是被右派所推崇

  • And, in fact, when we did the interview --

    就好像羅斯福夫人被左派所推崇的一樣。

  • I did the living self-portrait with her --

    事實上, 我們做了這個訪談,

  • there were three former directors of the CIA

    我也給她做了活著的自我肖像,

  • basically sitting at her feet,

    當時三個前中央情報局的指揮官

  • just enjoying her presence.

    坐在她的腳下,

  • And I thought, this is going to be a piece of cake,

    在欣賞她的訪問。

  • because I always have preliminary talks with these people

    我在想, 這應該一切都會順利得易如反掌,

  • for just maybe 10 or 15 minutes.

    因為, 我通常都會跟受訪者有些熱身的閒聊

  • We never talk before that because if you talk before,

    大概是十至十五分鐘。

  • you don't get it on the stage.

    我們並沒有說到正題, 因為如果你預先談過了,

  • So she and I had a delightful conversation.

    你便有不能把正題再次放在台上了。

  • We were on the stage and then --

    我跟她有一段愉悅的對話。

  • by the way, spectacular.

    接著我們走上台前--

  • It was all part of Clare Boothe Luce's look.

    是那種, 很壯觀的樣子。

  • She was in a great evening gown.

    因為這是Clare Boothe Luce 看起來的模樣。

  • She was 80, almost that day of the interview,

    她穿著一襲晚裝。

  • and there she was and there I was,

    在訪問的那天, 她差不多八十歲了

  • and I just proceeded into the questions.

    她在這裡, 我在那裡,

  • And she stonewalled me. It was unbelievable.

    我只是開始去問問題。

  • Anything that I would ask, she would turn around, dismiss,

    她竟然在戒備著我, 這簡直是難以置信!

  • and I was basically up there -- any of you

    我問的任何問題, 她都會迴避, 然後略過,

  • in the moderate-to-full entertainment world

    而我就在那裡, 好像大家一樣

  • know what it is to die onstage.

    在這個娛樂至上的世界

  • And I was dying. She was absolutely not giving me a thing.

    知道什麼是死在台上。

  • And I began to wonder what was going on,

    我已經快要死去, 但她仍是決絕的不給我任何東西。

  • and you think while you talk,

    我開始去思考究竟發生了什麼事,

  • and basically, I thought, I got it.

    一直在說, 一直在想,

  • When we were alone, I was her audience.

    後來,我想, 我知道了。

  • Now I'm her competitor for the audience.

    當只有我們的時候, 我是她的聽眾。

  • That's the problem here, and she's fighting me for that,

    但在台上, 我便和她在爭奪聽眾。

  • and so then I asked her a question --

    這就是問題, 她在跟我爭奪,

  • I didn't know how I was going to get out of it --

    跟著, 我問了她一個問題--

  • I asked her a question about her days as a playwright,

    我其實並不知道我該怎樣從這處境之中逃脫--

  • and again, characteristically,

    我問了她一個她過去做劇作家的問題,

  • instead of saying, "Oh yes, I was a playwright, and this is what blah blah blah,"

    再次的,很經典的,

  • she said, "Oh, playwright. Everybody knows I was a playwright.

    她沒有說: 『啊對, 我是劇作家........什麼..... 什麼......』

  • Most people think that I was an actress. I was never an actress."

    她卻說: 『啊, 劇作家, 每個人都知道我是劇作家,

  • But I hadn't asked that, and then she went off on a tear,

    很多人都以為我是演員, 我從來沒做過演員。』

  • and she said, "Oh, well, there was that one time that I was an actress.

    但我還沒有問及, 她卻竟然流下淚來,

  • It was for a charity in Connecticut when I was a congresswoman,

    她說, 『對, 曾經有一次, 我是一個演員,

  • and I got up there," and she went on and on, "And then I got on the stage."

    那次只是為Connecticut 做一個慈善的演員, 我那時還是眾議員,

  • And then she turned to me and said,

    我上了台』, 她繼續說: 『 我上了台。』

  • "And you know what those young actors did?

    接著, 她轉向對我說,

  • They upstaged me." And she said, "Do you know what that is?"

    『你知道當時那些年青演員做些什麼?

  • Just withering in her contempt.

    他們把我的風頭都搶走了。』然後她說: 『你知道什麼是搶風頭嗎?』