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  • Hey, it’s Marie Forleo and you are watching MarieTV, the place to be to create a business and life you love.

    嗨,我是 Marie Forleo,你現在正在收看 Marie TV,一個分享你喜愛的日常生活與事物的平台

  • You know, my guest today found himself riding high on some career wins, but inside he was

    我們今天的來賓在他的職業生涯中一帆風順,締造許多佳績,但在他的內心

  • feeling empty and alone. He’s here today to share some lessons he’s learned about

    卻感到空虛與孤獨。今天他來到這裡跟我們分享他所學到

  • how the masks that we can all wear keep us from being our best.

    我們戴上的面具如何妨礙我們成為更好的人

  • Lewis Howes is a former professional football player turned lifestyle entrepreneur. He’s

    Lewis Howes 先前是個職業美式足球選手,後來成為追求自我價值的創業家。

  • the author of the New York Times bestseller, The School of Greatness, with a popular podcast

    它是紐約時報暢銷書的作者,《The School of Greatness》,與著名的播客節目同名

  • of the same name. Lewis is a contributing writer for Entrepreneur and has been featured

    Lewis 是創業者雜誌的投稿作家,也曾上過許多節目

  • on The Today Show, Fast Company, ESPN, Sports Illustrated, and Men’s Health, among others.

    Today、Fast Company、ESPN、Sports Illustrated 還有 Men’s Health 等等

  • His newest book, The Mask of Masculinity: How Men Can Embrace Vulnerability, Create

    他最新的著作,《The Mask of Masculinity: How Men Can Embrace Vulnerability, Create Strong Relationships, and Live Their Fullest Lives》

  • Strong Relationships, And Live Their Fullest Lives, is available now.

    現在已經上市

  • Hey, Lewis.

    嗨,Lewis

  • Good to see you, Marie.

    很高興看到妳,Marie

  • So good to see you. I’m so excited that were finally doing this.

    好開心看到你,我們終於邀請你來上節目,我好興奮

  • Me too. Thanks for having me. Of course. It’s been, it’s been a while,

    我也是,感謝你們邀請我。 -當然,已經有一段時間了

  • so I want to start at the top with this book, The Masks of Masculinity. Tell us what was

    所以我想要從這本書的封面開始談起,男子氣概的假面,能不能告訴我們

  • the inspiration to write this one? Because it’s a departure from your last book and

    寫出這標題的靈感何來?因為這跟上一本書是截然不同的,

  • most of the topics.

    裡面的主題也有很大差異

  • Yeah. The inspiration came from a darker pain that I think youre aware of that I started

    沒錯,靈感是從一個更黑暗的苦痛而來,我想妳應該知道我開始

  • talking about a few years ago where my whole life I felt like I needed to achieve certain

    談論數年前我的整個生活,我覺得我需要達到一些目標

  • things, to fit in, to be accepted, to be welcomed as a part of the communitywhether it

    去適應、被接受、被接納成為團體的一份子,不管是在

  • be in school, with classmates, to teammates in sports, to the business world. I always

    學校、跟同學、跟運動場上的隊友、跟現實社會。我總是

  • felt like I needed to fit in. And by doing so I needed to prove myself to the people

    覺得我需要去適應。因此我需要向人們證明我自己

  • to fit in and to be accepted.

    去適應以及被接受

  • And so I was very driven to achieve, and it worked. That drive allowed me to get certain

    所以我強迫自己去達成,也成功了。那樣的驅動力讓我得到我要的

  • results, but every time I achieved those results I never felt happy inside, I never felt fulfilled.

    結果,但每次我達成這些成績時,我的內心並不感到開心,我從來不覺得滿意

  • I didn't feel like, “Oh, I've figured it out now that I’ve got this thing.” Like

    我沒有感覺到「噢,我現在想通了,我得到我要的了。」

  • I had inner peace. I never had inner peace. I felt like I was always alone, always suffering

    就像我內心是平靜的。我從來沒有感到內心平靜過。我覺得我總是孤獨,總是感到痛苦

  • and resentful and angry when I would achieve. It was almost as if like the moment I achieved

    憤慨與憤怒,當我達成某個目標。就好像我達到

  • the things I wanted to achieve, I was the least happy. And I never understood why. So

    我想要達成的目標時,我是最不開心的,而我從來不知道為什麼

  • I said “I need bigger goals, I need bigger dreams. I needmaybe it’s not big enough.”

    所以我說:「我需要更大的目標,我需要更大的夢想,我需要…或許它就是不夠遠大。」

  • Right?

    是吧?

  • Right. Like youre not dreaming big enough.

    沒錯,就像是你夢想不夠遠大

  • Yeah.

  • You don't have the vision big enough.

    你的眼光不夠遠

  • Exactly. So let me keep going.

    完全正確,所以我要繼續前進

  • Yeah.

  • And so in my 20s and late 20s I just kept going bigger and bigger. And still, every

    所以在我 20 歲到接近 30 歲時,我把目標訂得越來越大。同樣地,每次

  • time I would achieve something or certain marks that I set for myself, it wasn’t enough

    我要完成某些事或達成某個我設定的里程碑時,內心仍覺得不夠

  • inside. And I didn't understand why. I just figured this is the way it is. This is who

    我還是不懂為什麼。我只能猜想就這樣吧,我就是這樣的人

  • I am. This is what life is all about.

    人生就是這樣

  • And I didn't have that awareness until fourabout four and a half years ago, kind

    但直到 4 … 4 年半以前我才意識到

  • of everything went south for me. You know, I was achieving at the highest levels in my

    好像所有事都開始走下坡了。在我的事業上我已經達到最高水準

  • business. I, you know, I was achieving athletically my dream playing with the USA Handball team.

    我…妳知道的,我達成運動生涯中的夢想,入選美國手球隊

  • I had, you know, the beautiful girlfriend. I had like what – I had a lot of money.

    我有一個漂亮的女朋友。我有很多錢

  • What a lot of guys would think of like that "He’s made it. He’s making it." But

    有許多人都會想:「他做到了,他正在成就他的人生。」

  • I was in a terrible just darkness inside. I didn't know how to handle my inner world.

    但我覺得內心十分陰暗,我的心理狀況很糟。我不知道怎麼處理我的內心世界

  • My outer world looked good. My inner world was sick.

    我的外在世界看起來很好,但我的內心世界生病了

  • I think it’s interesting just to note for folks, because a lot of us, you know, especially

    我覺得這是很有趣的,可以提醒人們,因為許多人,尤其

  • when you don't come from a lot and, you know, doesn't matter if it’s middle class, poor,

    當你不是很富裕的人,不論是中產階級、貧困人家

  • anywhere on that spectrum, and then you start to achieve. It’s like a lot of people go,

    任何那些中低階層的人,而當你開始達成成就時。很多人可能會說

  • Oh, it’s easy for you to say.” You know, “you have all the things now. Oh,

    「噢,你說得倒輕鬆。」「你現在擁有了那麼多,噢,

  • but boo hoo inside.”

    但內心卻像個孩子哭鬧。」

  • But I think it’s important to make the point. I’ve certainly noticed this from so many

    但我想重要的是你指出了這點。我當然從許多人身上注意到了

  • people that I’ve interviewed, books that I’ve read, folks that I know in my personal

    那些我訪問過的人、我讀過的書、我私底下的朋友們

  • life, that no matter how much is happening or appearing to happen on the outside, it

    不論外在發生或即將發生多少變化

  • cannot make up for some of the deep pain and suffering that’s happening on the inside

    都無法彌補一些內心世界發生的深層的痛苦

  • that a lot of times you just don't know about.

    而且你通常是不知道的

  • And a lot of the people that are so driven, that are successful, usually comes from some

    同時許多人也鼓吹,成功通常來自於

  • type of darker pain or something to prove.

    某些深層的痛苦,或是某些需要證明的事

  • Yeah.

    沒錯

  • Which was where I was coming from. So it all kind of came crashing down whenit’s

    這就是為什麼我要出這本書。所以這一切都崩潰的時候,當…

  • funny, because I’m having like a deja vu moment with you. Because I actually was sitting

    這非常有趣,因為我覺得跟妳好像有過似曾相識的時刻。因為實際上我跟妳好像

  • with you I think at a coffee shop nearby when I was like, “you know, I’m thinking about

    坐在附近的咖啡廳裡,當時我似乎說:「妳知道嗎,我在考慮要搬去洛杉磯 (Los Angeles)。」

  • moving to LA.”

  • Yes.

    沒錯

  • Do you remember this conversation?

    妳記得這個對話嗎?

  • Totally. Of course I do.

    當然,我完全記得

  • I was like, “What do you think? Give me your advice, because I really look up to you

    我說:「妳覺得如何?給我一些建議,因為我真的很敬重妳,

  • and I appreciate your wisdom.” So I was like, “What do you think? I’m in love

    我也很欣賞妳的智慧。」我說:「妳怎麼想?我跟一個女孩在一起

  • with this girl. Like, I don't know but things are going well here in New York City. She

    我不知道該怎麼辦,在紐約的一切都很順利,但她

  • wants me to be in LA. I don't know what to do.” And youre like, “You know what?

    想要我去洛杉磯,我不知道該怎麼辦。」然後妳說:「你知道嗎

  • Just go for it. Like, just go for it, because you don't want to regret it.” And you told

    就做吧,就照你想的做吧,因為你不想要遺憾。」然後妳告訴我

  • me to really listen to my intuition. And I was like, “You know, maybe I’ll try it

    聽從你自己的直覺。然後我又說:「好吧,或許我會試試看」

  • out.” You know, I wasn’t sure. I was kind of torn. You told me to go for it, and I did,

    我不是非常肯定,當時我有點折磨。妳告訴我就去做吧,而我也做了

  • and I’m very glad I did because it allowed me to openit got me to my darkest place.

    然後我非常開心我做了,因為這讓我開啟了…這把我帶領到了我最黑暗的時刻

  • Yes.

    是的

  • It allowed me to see what was working and what wasn’t working.

    這讓我看到了什麼是有用的,什麼是沒有用的

  • Yeah.

  • And the relationship was very toxic afterwards, but I didn't know how to emotionally communicate

    後來我跟女朋友的關係變得十分緊張,但我不知道該如何理性地溝通

  • in the relationship and express myself in a healthy way.

    對於這段關係,還有以健康的方式抒發我自己

  • Yeah.

  • So when things weren’t going well I just didn't feel like I couldn't even talk to her.

    所以當所有事情都不順利時,我覺得我沒辦法…甚至無法跟她說話

  • I felt like I wasn’t able to express myself for whatever reason. And what I would do is

    我覺得不論什麼原因,我都無法表達我自己的感受。而我當時做的是

  • I would take that anger out into the world. I wouldn't be angry with her or get in a fight

    我會把這樣的憤怒發洩到生活中。我不會跟她生氣或吵架

  • with her. I would take it out in the sports world when I was playing basketball, in business

    我會在打籃球的時候暴躁、跟朋友談生意的時候生氣

  • with my friends. I would take it out elsewhere on people.

    我會把情緒帶到其他人身上

  • And I was very angry, resentful, and passive aggressive. And so the relationship was very

    我會非常生氣、憤慨和消極。所以那段關係對我來說

  • toxic for me because I didn’t know how to emotionally communicate. I was angry, resentful,

    是非常不愉快的,因為我不知道怎麼理性溝通,我很生氣、憤慨

  • my business relationship was crumbling, and I started to get in a lot of fights. I started

    我跟生意夥伴的關係正在崩潰,然後我開始跟許多人爭吵

  • to get very aggressive with everyone. Any time someone would attack me or give me a

    我開始對每個人都有攻擊性,任何時候有人在網路上攻擊我或給我

  • comment online that I didn't like or saygive me feedback,” it was like I had to defend

    我不喜歡的評論時,或說:「給我回饋。」這就像是我必須去

  • myself with everything. The point where I got in a fight on a basketball court, and

    為我自己的一切辯護。當我在籃球場上跟人爭執時

  • that literally shook my world. Because I could have lost everything. You know.

    真的動搖了我的世界,因為我可能失去一切

  • It was a fist fight.

    那是真的拳腳相向

  • A fist fight. A physical fight. For months it was like I was walking down the street

    真的打架,真的拳打腳踢。大概一整個月我走在路上

  • looking for people to look at me weird so I could fight them. I kind of had that aggression.

    都覺得大家看我的眼神很奇怪,那我就可以跟他們打架。我當時很具攻擊性

  • I was like, “You trying to look at me? You trying to step to me?” or whatever. And,

    我就像是「你是在看我嗎?你是向我走過來嗎?」之類的

  • you know, finally in this basketball game I got in a fight. And I gave myself the justification

    最後在這場球賽中我真的跟人打起來了。我給自己的理由是

  • that he hit me first, so it was okay to hit back. Right? Since he hit me first, it was

    他先打我的,所以打回去是沒問題的,不是嗎?當他先打我

  • okay to hit back. But I didn't know when to stop. And I finally got pulled off the fight

    反擊回去是沒問題的。但我不知道何時該停止。最後我被拉走

  • and I looked at the guy and saw his face completely, you know, just bloody. Blood all over the

    然後我看著這個人,他的臉上完全…血流滿面。整個球場佈滿血跡

  • courts, all over my hands. And I started shaking. And I was just like, you know, “what did

    我的整雙手都是血。我開始發抖,然後我就像:「我剛剛做了什麼?

  • I just do? What did I just do? Everything could go wrong from this moment forward.”

    我剛剛幹了什麼好事?從今以後的一切可能都要變樣了。」

  • You know, the police station was actually right across the street from this place. And

    警察局其實就在那附近

  • I was like what happens if they saw this? Whatyou know, what if I go to jail?

    如果他們看到怎麼辦?如果我進監獄怎麼辦?

  • I actually ran home like a coward. I couldn't even face him or anyone else there. I ran

    事實上我就像個懦夫一樣跑回家裡,我沒辦法面對他或在場的任何一個人

  • home like a coward, washed the blood off my hands, looked at myself in the mirror, and

    我像個孬種一樣跑回家,洗掉手上的血跡,看著鏡中的自己

  • was just like, “Who are you? Who are you? What are you doing? Why are you so angry?”

    說:「你是誰?你到底是誰?你在幹嘛?你在氣什麼?」

  • Like, it all started to come together where it was the catalyst for me to start looking

    一切似乎開始恢復正常了,這件事是讓我開始審視自己內在的催化劑

  • within. Kind of months and months of this toxic relationship, this being aggressive

    這數個月來的緊張關係、對人們的攻擊性

  • with people, constantly being defensive online or offline, that moment was the catalyst for

    經常在網路上或現實中的辯護行為,那一次促使我

  • me to say, “Okay, I need to look within and start seeing what I can do to do things

    對自己說:「好,我需要好好審視自己的內心世界,看看我該做些什麼讓一切

  • differently.”

    不同。」

  • So that’s when I, you know, hired therapists and coaches and went to emotional intelligence

    所以從那時開始,我就找了治療師、教練,參加情緒智商工作坊

  • workshops, started asking my friends and family for feedback. I said, “Give me feedback.

    開始向我的朋友、家人尋求回饋。我說:「給我一些建議

  • I want to hear how I can be better.” I think for so many years I didn't want anyone to

    我想聽聽怎麼做我才能變得更好。」我想這麼多年來,我不希望任何人

  • tell me how to change. I just said this is who I am. Accept me for who I am.

    來告訴我怎麼改變。我覺得這就是我。接受我就是這樣的人

  • Yeah.

  • And that was the catalyst for me wanting to talk about this. Because during that process

    而那就是個契機,讓我想要去談論這件事。因為在我打開心胸

  • of opening up myself and learning about why I was so defensive or guarded or aggressive

    以及了解原因的過程,我整個人生是充滿防衛心、處處警惕、很好鬥的

  • my whole lifenow, listen. I was a very loving, fun guy. You knew me before then.

    過去我是一個有愛心、風趣的人,妳之前就認識我了

  • Absolutely.

    完全是

  • Always loving and fun, but it was like those moments where I was triggered, it was like

    總是有愛心、風趣,但就在某些時刻我被觸發了

  • I didn’t know how to turn it off.

    而我不知道該如何停止

  • Yeah.

  • And I never understood why.

    而我從來不懂為什麼

  • And then it sounds like from reading the book, there was also a pivotal moment as you were

    聽起來我們從書中可以得知,也有一些重要的關鍵時刻

  • searching in your own journey and starting to discover, “oh, my goodness. How do I

    當你在探索自己的人生旅程時,「噢,我的天,我該怎麼釋放這憤怒的情緒?

  • release this anger? How do I not have these triggers? How do I find real happiness? Because

    如果沒有這些契機怎麼辦?我要怎麼找到真正的快樂?因為這些該死的唯物主義

  • all the bullshit materialism clearly ain’t doing it.” You stumbled upon a documentary

    都無法幫助我改善現況。」你無意中發現了一部紀錄片

  • that made a huge impact.

    對你產生很大的影響

  • Yeah, yeah. The Mask You Live In is a powerful documentary that started having these conversations

    沒錯,《男孩面具備後的真相》是個很讓人震撼的紀錄片,也因此讓許多諸如此類的對話開始出現

  • more and more. With boys, with teens, with men in prison, with all types of men and boys

    與男孩、青少年、服刑中的男人,與各式各樣的男人與男孩

  • about how weve been developed and conditioned to become men in a certain way.

    有關我們是怎麼被以特定方式教導、制約成為一個男人

  • How ... what it means to be a man in our society, specifically in America. And I think my whole

    如何…成為一個「男人」在這社會上代表的意義為何,特別是在美國。而我想我整個人生

  • life I was conditioned a certain way to act and to not act. You know, when youre 7

    都被制約在該扮演什麼角色以及不該扮演什麼角色中。當你只是個 7 歲小孩

  • years old and your parents tell you to go be kind at school to kids, and then you're

    你的父母告訴你在學校要對其他孩子友好,然後你試著

  • trying to be nice to people and express yourself and you get shoved in a locker. You say, “okay,

    對人們親切以及表達自我,然後你把自己關進箱子裡說:「夠了,

  • I don't want to do that anymore if I’m not gonna be accepted.”

    如果我不能被接納,我就不想再繼續做下去了

  • Yeah.

    沒錯

  • Not saying that happened to me, but that’s just kind of like the pattern that kids go

    這不是發生在我身上,但有很多孩子會經歷這樣的情況

  • through. Where theyre generous, theyre kind, theyre compassionate, theyre caring,

    那些慷慨的、親切的、有同情心的、體貼的孩子

  • maybe they show emotion, and then they get made fun of.

    或許他們曾表現出不悅的情緒,然後就被取笑

  • Yeah.

    沒錯

  • You know, in the sports teams growing up you weren’t allowed to show emotion. You weren’t

    妳知道,在運動團隊裡成長,是不能有任何情緒在的,你不能哭

  • allowed to cry, because men don't cry. And the names that youre called for even acting

    因為男人不能哭。然後你會被取綽號,你有任何

  • like you have any emotions or like youre sensitive at all was that you were less than

    情緒出現,或是你敏感了點,都會顯得你沒有男子氣概

  • a man. They would call you all sorts of names. And so just to fit in, just to be accepted

    他們會幫你取那一類綽號,所以你就是得適應,就得被同儕

  • by your peers, you had to act a certain way to be cool or to fit in. And I think for me

    接納,你必須扮演好「男人」的角色或適應它。

  • that carried on into other areas of my life. I couldn’t just turn it off after those three hours of practice.

    我想我也將這樣的情況帶到我生活中的其他領域。我沒有辦法在 3 小時的練習時間結束後停止角色扮演

  • Yeah.

    沒錯

  • Then it was with my family at home. I had to act cool. It was with my girlfriends, I

    然後跟我的家人相處時,我必須要很酷。跟我的女朋友相處時

  • had to act a certain way. It was with guy friends. I never fully opened up with guys.

    我也要扮演該有的樣子。跟同性朋友也是,我從來沒有展現真實的自我在他們面前

  • I didn't have one good guy friend where I could tell anything.

    我沒有一個真正的同性好友是可以無話不談的

  • I think 50% of men feel that they don't have a guy friend that they can share stuff with,

    我想有一半的男人會覺得他們沒有一個同性好友可以吐苦水

  • whereas women in general, I see you guys getting together every day and talking about things

    但是通常女人不會如此,我看妳們每天相處在一起,討論一些

  • youre insecure about and the fears you have and frustrations youre feeling from

    妳們覺得哪裡感到不安、妳們的恐懼

  • relationships or life or image issues or whatever it may be. Youre talking about these things.

    及伴侶關係間或生活或形象問題或任何事情感受到的挫折。妳們在這些話題能侃侃而談

  • Whereas I personally never talked about them. And a lot of the guys that I grew up with

    相反地我個人從來不曾談過這些話題,而和我一起成長的同性朋友

  • never talked about any of their insecurities or fears or doubts or concerns, because that’s

    也從不談論這些不安全感、恐懼、懷疑、憂心的話題

  • not what it means to be a man. Youre not allowed to show vulnerabilities, at least

    因為那不是男人該談論的話題。你不被允許展現脆弱的一面

  • growing up the way I did.

    至少在我成長過程中如此

  • And as I started having these conversations with other men I realized, wow. This is like

    而我開始與其他男人談論這些話題時,我發現,哇,這幾乎是所有我認識的男人

  • almost every guy that I meet faces this. Except for a few guys who grew up like on a farm

    都會面對的問題。除了幾個朋友不會,他們成長的地方像農村

  • or like in a spiritual retreat center where their parents were so loving and open and

    或像心靈啟迪中心之類,他們的父母相當地親切、開放

  • wanted them to be more expressive. But for the majority of guys that I know and that

    想要他們多多表達自己的情緒。但我認識的大多數人,以及跟我一同成長的朋友

  • I grew up with, that wasn’t the case.

    他們大多不是如此

  • And when I started opening up, you know, four years ago I started telling people that I

    當我開始敞開內心,大約 4 年前我開始告訴人們

  • was sexually abused and raped by a man when I was five years old. And this is when everything

    我 5 歲時曾被一個男人性虐待,這件事改變了

  • started to shift for me, because that was the secret I was unwilling to share, and that

    我的世界,因為這是我最不願意提起的事,

  • secret just manifested into toxicity inside of me where I didn't know how to express myself

    這個祕密在我心中造成很大的影響,我不知道該怎麼好好的表達我自己的感受

  • in a loving way when I was hurt. So the opposite of love is some type of anger, passive aggressiveness,

    當我受到傷害時。愛的反面是憤怒、消極

  • frustration, and that’s the only way I knew how to communicate when I was feeling pain.

    挫折,這也是我感到痛苦時唯一的溝通方式

  • And I think there wasand as I started to open up about this and share with my friends,

    然後我想…我開始敞開心胸跟朋友、家人談論這個話題

  • with my family, and then more publicly over the months, something incredible happened.

    甚至在這個月內更公開地談論,一些難以置信的事發生了

  • So many men would open up back to me. You know, I was terrified to tell people what

    許多男性也對我敞開心胸,我過去很害怕告訴人們

  • had happened to me, because I was so ashamed. I felt guilty, I felt insecure, I felt like

    在我身上發生什麼事,因為我感到很羞恥。我感到罪惡、不安全感,我覺得

  • no one was gonna love me anymore. They weren’t going to accept me. But when I started to

    沒有人會再喜愛我了,沒有人會接納我。但當我開始分享

  • share, men would tell me their deepest, darkest secrets, their biggest insecurities, their

    許多男性也告訴我他們最深處、最黑暗的秘密,他們最大的不安全感

  • pain, the things they suffered with, and they would tell me, you know, “I’ve judged

    他們的痛苦,他們經歷的事,還有他們會告訴我:「我曾經批評你好一陣子

  • you for so long and now I trust you. Like, I fully trust you now.” Men were like, “I

    但現在我相信你,我完全信任你。」那些男性說:「我會支持你

  • will follow you anywhere now that I know this about you and youre willing to talk about it.”

    因為你願意分享這件事,讓我更了解你。」

  • I would get emails and just essays from men saying, you know, “I’ve been married for

    我會收到一些男性給我的郵件或短文,上面寫:「我已經結婚

  • 25 years. My wife doesn't know that I was sexually abused or that I went through this

    25 年,我老婆不知道我以前曾被性虐待,或是說我曾經歷另一件事。」

  • other thing.” It wasn’t always sexual abuse, but the men have gone through a lot

    並不全然都是性虐待,但許多男性經歷了一些事

  • of things that they feel like theyre unable to express and talk about.

    那些事是他們覺得無法向他人提起的事

  • And I realized, wow, the more I start to share with my friends and family for them to actually

    然後我明白,哇,我跟朋友、家人分享得越多,對他們來說

  • see me for the first time and just know me, know what I’ve gone through, know what I’ve

    這是他們第一次看到這樣的我,也第一次知道我曾經歷這些事、我的感受

  • felt, I feel like I’m finally able to be myself. And the more I started to share, the

    我終於覺得我能真正地做我自己。我分享得越多

  • more I started to heal, and the less those moments or those insecurities had control

    我更加感到被治癒了,我也更不容易被那些不好的時刻、不安全感的事物給控制

  • over me. I was able to take my power back, and it’s been an amazing transition.

    我又變回過去朝氣蓬勃的我,這是個很驚人的轉變

  • And so I felt like this was more of like a responsibility for me to talk about this thing.

    然後我覺得我有責任去談論這些事情

  • Over anything else I’d do, this was more of a process for me to talk about this, for

    比其他事還重要,這不僅僅只是談論這件事

  • me to continue to heal, for me to hold myself accountable. Because even though I started

    讓我持續受到治癒、對我自己負責任。因為即使我開始

  • to share and heal, last week I’m getting triggered and like aggressive and angry. And,

    分享與改善,上週我還是會生氣、具攻擊性

  • you know, passive aggressive still.

    還是會消極

  • Patterns exist, and especially ones that weve had over the course of our lives.

    情況還是存在,尤其是已經在我們生活中紮根的事

  • Exactly.

    沒錯

  • You know, 10, 20, 30, 40 years youve been doing something one way, it isit’s

    10 年、20 年、30 年、40 年,你一直在持續做某件事,那是…

  • a journey and a process to start to unwire that stuff.

    一個旅程與過程,開始去脫離這些東西

  • Exactly.

    沒錯

  • So I love that though, because there is something I think really powerful, right, about like

    不過我喜歡這樣,因為感覺就像有股力量在支持你,對吧,當你準備好

  • taking a stand and saying, “Okay, I’m gonna talk about this and I’m also gonna

    站出來並說出這件事,「好,我準備要談論這些事了,而我也將

  • use this as an opportunity to hold myself to a higher standard. I might not get it perfect,

    透過這次機會,把我自己推向一個更高的境界,我可能沒辦法做到完美

  • but at least now I’ve declared like, okay, this is what I’m working on. This is what

    但至少我現在正向所有人宣告,這就是我在努力改善的事

  • I’m gonna share. This is what I’m gonna keep sharing. This is what I’m gonna keep

    這就是我要跟大家分享的事,我也會一直跟大家分享。這就是我這整個人生

  • going for in my own life.” I think that that’s incredible. And I want to put this

    都會持續做下去的事。」我想那真的相當驚人。然後我想要藉由這個話題

  • in a larger context.

    來更深入地談論這本書

  • So beyond your own journey, and were touching upon this a little bit, but what do you see

    所以在你人生旅程中,我們已經稍微窺探其中一小部分,但你瞭解了什麼

  • and what have you seen from writing this book and from talking to so many men and boys about

    從寫這本書的過程以及和許多男人、男孩談論有關

  • what’s not working for them in terms of our culture today?

    在我們現今的文化中男人不該做什麼,你從中得到了什麼?

  • In general men don't feel like theyre allowed to express themselves in a more vulnerable

    通常男人都覺得他們不該表現出脆弱的樣子

  • way because of whatever conditioning theyve had. It may be