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Hey, it’s Marie Forleo and you are watching MarieTV, the place to be to create a business and life you love.
嗨,我是 Marie Forleo,你現在正在收看 Marie TV,一個分享你喜愛的日常生活與事物的平台
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You know, my guest today found himself riding high on some career wins, but inside he was
我們今天的來賓在他的職業生涯中一帆風順,締造許多佳績,但在他的內心
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feeling empty and alone. He’s here today to share some lessons he’s learned about
卻感到空虛與孤獨。今天他來到這裡跟我們分享他所學到
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how the masks that we can all wear keep us from being our best.
我們戴上的面具如何妨礙我們成為更好的人
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Lewis Howes is a former professional football player turned lifestyle entrepreneur. He’s
Lewis Howes 先前是個職業美式足球選手,後來成為追求自我價值的創業家。
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the author of the New York Times bestseller, The School of Greatness, with a popular podcast
它是紐約時報暢銷書的作者,《The School of Greatness》,與著名的播客節目同名
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of the same name. Lewis is a contributing writer for Entrepreneur and has been featured
Lewis 是創業者雜誌的投稿作家,也曾上過許多節目
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on The Today Show, Fast Company, ESPN, Sports Illustrated, and Men’s Health, among others.
Today、Fast Company、ESPN、Sports Illustrated 還有 Men’s Health 等等
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His newest book, The Mask of Masculinity: How Men Can Embrace Vulnerability, Create
他最新的著作,《The Mask of Masculinity: How Men Can Embrace Vulnerability, Create Strong Relationships, and Live Their Fullest Lives》
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Strong Relationships, And Live Their Fullest Lives, is available now.
現在已經上市
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Hey, Lewis.
嗨,Lewis
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Good to see you, Marie.
很高興看到妳,Marie
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So good to see you. I’m so excited that we’re finally doing this.
好開心看到你,我們終於邀請你來上節目,我好興奮
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Me too. Thanks for having me. Of course. It’s been, it’s been a while,
我也是,感謝你們邀請我。 -當然,已經有一段時間了
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so I want to start at the top with this book, The Masks of Masculinity. Tell us what was
所以我想要從這本書的封面開始談起,男子氣概的假面,能不能告訴我們
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the inspiration to write this one? Because it’s a departure from your last book and
寫出這標題的靈感何來?因為這跟上一本書是截然不同的,
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most of the topics.
裡面的主題也有很大差異
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Yeah. The inspiration came from a darker pain that I think you’re aware of that I started
沒錯,靈感是從一個更黑暗的苦痛而來,我想妳應該知道我開始
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talking about a few years ago where my whole life I felt like I needed to achieve certain
談論數年前我的整個生活,我覺得我需要達到一些目標
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things, to fit in, to be accepted, to be welcomed as a part of the community – whether it
去適應、被接受、被接納成為團體的一份子,不管是在
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be in school, with classmates, to teammates in sports, to the business world. I always
學校、跟同學、跟運動場上的隊友、跟現實社會。我總是
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felt like I needed to fit in. And by doing so I needed to prove myself to the people
覺得我需要去適應。因此我需要向人們證明我自己
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to fit in and to be accepted.
去適應以及被接受
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And so I was very driven to achieve, and it worked. That drive allowed me to get certain
所以我強迫自己去達成,也成功了。那樣的驅動力讓我得到我要的
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results, but every time I achieved those results I never felt happy inside, I never felt fulfilled.
結果,但每次我達成這些成績時,我的內心並不感到開心,我從來不覺得滿意
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I didn't feel like, “Oh, I've figured it out now that I’ve got this thing.” Like
我沒有感覺到「噢,我現在想通了,我得到我要的了。」
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I had inner peace. I never had inner peace. I felt like I was always alone, always suffering
就像我內心是平靜的。我從來沒有感到內心平靜過。我覺得我總是孤獨,總是感到痛苦
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and resentful and angry when I would achieve. It was almost as if like the moment I achieved
憤慨與憤怒,當我達成某個目標。就好像我達到
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the things I wanted to achieve, I was the least happy. And I never understood why. So
我想要達成的目標時,我是最不開心的,而我從來不知道為什麼
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I said “I need bigger goals, I need bigger dreams. I need – maybe it’s not big enough.”
所以我說:「我需要更大的目標,我需要更大的夢想,我需要…或許它就是不夠遠大。」
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Right?
是吧?
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Right. Like you’re not dreaming big enough.
沒錯,就像是你夢想不夠遠大
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Yeah.
對
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You don't have the vision big enough.
你的眼光不夠遠
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Exactly. So let me keep going.
完全正確,所以我要繼續前進
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Yeah.
對
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And so in my 20s and late 20s I just kept going bigger and bigger. And still, every
所以在我 20 歲到接近 30 歲時,我把目標訂得越來越大。同樣地,每次
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time I would achieve something or certain marks that I set for myself, it wasn’t enough
我要完成某些事或達成某個我設定的里程碑時,內心仍覺得不夠
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inside. And I didn't understand why. I just figured this is the way it is. This is who
我還是不懂為什麼。我只能猜想就這樣吧,我就是這樣的人
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I am. This is what life is all about.
人生就是這樣
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And I didn't have that awareness until four … about four and a half years ago, kind
但直到 4 … 4 年半以前我才意識到
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of everything went south for me. You know, I was achieving at the highest levels in my
好像所有事都開始走下坡了。在我的事業上我已經達到最高水準
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business. I, you know, I was achieving athletically my dream playing with the USA Handball team.
我…妳知道的,我達成運動生涯中的夢想,入選美國手球隊
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I had, you know, the beautiful girlfriend. I had like what – I had a lot of money.
我有一個漂亮的女朋友。我有很多錢
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What a lot of guys would think of like that "He’s made it. He’s making it." But
有許多人都會想:「他做到了,他正在成就他的人生。」
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I was in a terrible just darkness inside. I didn't know how to handle my inner world.
但我覺得內心十分陰暗,我的心理狀況很糟。我不知道怎麼處理我的內心世界
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My outer world looked good. My inner world was sick.
我的外在世界看起來很好,但我的內心世界生病了
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I think it’s interesting just to note for folks, because a lot of us, you know, especially
我覺得這是很有趣的,可以提醒人們,因為許多人,尤其
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when you don't come from a lot and, you know, doesn't matter if it’s middle class, poor,
當你不是很富裕的人,不論是中產階級、貧困人家
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anywhere on that spectrum, and then you start to achieve. It’s like a lot of people go,
任何那些中低階層的人,而當你開始達成成就時。很多人可能會說
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“Oh, it’s easy for you to say.” You know, “you have all the things now. Oh,
「噢,你說得倒輕鬆。」「你現在擁有了那麼多,噢,
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but boo hoo inside.”
但內心卻像個孩子哭鬧。」
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But I think it’s important to make the point. I’ve certainly noticed this from so many
但我想重要的是你指出了這點。我當然從許多人身上注意到了
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people that I’ve interviewed, books that I’ve read, folks that I know in my personal
那些我訪問過的人、我讀過的書、我私底下的朋友們
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life, that no matter how much is happening or appearing to happen on the outside, it
不論外在發生或即將發生多少變化
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cannot make up for some of the deep pain and suffering that’s happening on the inside
都無法彌補一些內心世界發生的深層的痛苦
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that a lot of times you just don't know about.
而且你通常是不知道的
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And a lot of the people that are so driven, that are successful, usually comes from some
同時許多人也鼓吹,成功通常來自於
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type of darker pain or something to prove.
某些深層的痛苦,或是某些需要證明的事
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Yeah.
沒錯
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Which was where I was coming from. So it all kind of came crashing down when – it’s
這就是為什麼我要出這本書。所以這一切都崩潰的時候,當…
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funny, because I’m having like a deja vu moment with you. Because I actually was sitting
這非常有趣,因為我覺得跟妳好像有過似曾相識的時刻。因為實際上我跟妳好像
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with you I think at a coffee shop nearby when I was like, “you know, I’m thinking about
坐在附近的咖啡廳裡,當時我似乎說:「妳知道嗎,我在考慮要搬去洛杉磯 (Los Angeles)。」
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moving to LA.”
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Yes.
沒錯
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Do you remember this conversation?
妳記得這個對話嗎?
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Totally. Of course I do.
當然,我完全記得
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I was like, “What do you think? Give me your advice, because I really look up to you
我說:「妳覺得如何?給我一些建議,因為我真的很敬重妳,
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and I appreciate your wisdom.” So I was like, “What do you think? I’m in love
我也很欣賞妳的智慧。」我說:「妳怎麼想?我跟一個女孩在一起
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with this girl. Like, I don't know but things are going well here in New York City. She
我不知道該怎麼辦,在紐約的一切都很順利,但她
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wants me to be in LA. I don't know what to do.” And you’re like, “You know what?
想要我去洛杉磯,我不知道該怎麼辦。」然後妳說:「你知道嗎
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Just go for it. Like, just go for it, because you don't want to regret it.” And you told
就做吧,就照你想的做吧,因為你不想要遺憾。」然後妳告訴我
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me to really listen to my intuition. And I was like, “You know, maybe I’ll try it
聽從你自己的直覺。然後我又說:「好吧,或許我會試試看」
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out.” You know, I wasn’t sure. I was kind of torn. You told me to go for it, and I did,
我不是非常肯定,當時我有點折磨。妳告訴我就去做吧,而我也做了
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and I’m very glad I did because it allowed me to open – it got me to my darkest place.
然後我非常開心我做了,因為這讓我開啟了…這把我帶領到了我最黑暗的時刻
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Yes.
是的
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It allowed me to see what was working and what wasn’t working.
這讓我看到了什麼是有用的,什麼是沒有用的
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Yeah.
對
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And the relationship was very toxic afterwards, but I didn't know how to emotionally communicate
後來我跟女朋友的關係變得十分緊張,但我不知道該如何理性地溝通
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in the relationship and express myself in a healthy way.
對於這段關係,還有以健康的方式抒發我自己
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Yeah.
是
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So when things weren’t going well I just didn't feel like I couldn't even talk to her.
所以當所有事情都不順利時,我覺得我沒辦法…甚至無法跟她說話
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I felt like I wasn’t able to express myself for whatever reason. And what I would do is
我覺得不論什麼原因,我都無法表達我自己的感受。而我當時做的是
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I would take that anger out into the world. I wouldn't be angry with her or get in a fight
我會把這樣的憤怒發洩到生活中。我不會跟她生氣或吵架
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with her. I would take it out in the sports world when I was playing basketball, in business
我會在打籃球的時候暴躁、跟朋友談生意的時候生氣
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with my friends. I would take it out elsewhere on people.
我會把情緒帶到其他人身上
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And I was very angry, resentful, and passive aggressive. And so the relationship was very
我會非常生氣、憤慨和消極。所以那段關係對我來說
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toxic for me because I didn’t know how to emotionally communicate. I was angry, resentful,
是非常不愉快的,因為我不知道怎麼理性溝通,我很生氣、憤慨
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my business relationship was crumbling, and I started to get in a lot of fights. I started
我跟生意夥伴的關係正在崩潰,然後我開始跟許多人爭吵
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to get very aggressive with everyone. Any time someone would attack me or give me a
我開始對每個人都有攻擊性,任何時候有人在網路上攻擊我或給我
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comment online that I didn't like or say “give me feedback,” it was like I had to defend
我不喜歡的評論時,或說:「給我回饋。」這就像是我必須去
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myself with everything. The point where I got in a fight on a basketball court, and
為我自己的一切辯護。當我在籃球場上跟人爭執時
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that literally shook my world. Because I could have lost everything. You know.
真的動搖了我的世界,因為我可能失去一切
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It was a fist fight.
那是真的拳腳相向
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A fist fight. A physical fight. For months it was like I was walking down the street
真的打架,真的拳打腳踢。大概一整個月我走在路上
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looking for people to look at me weird so I could fight them. I kind of had that aggression.
都覺得大家看我的眼神很奇怪,那我就可以跟他們打架。我當時很具攻擊性
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I was like, “You trying to look at me? You trying to step to me?” or whatever. And,
我就像是「你是在看我嗎?你是向我走過來嗎?」之類的
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you know, finally in this basketball game I got in a fight. And I gave myself the justification
最後在這場球賽中我真的跟人打起來了。我給自己的理由是
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that he hit me first, so it was okay to hit back. Right? Since he hit me first, it was
他先打我的,所以打回去是沒問題的,不是嗎?當他先打我
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okay to hit back. But I didn't know when to stop. And I finally got pulled off the fight
反擊回去是沒問題的。但我不知道何時該停止。最後我被拉走
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and I looked at the guy and saw his face completely, you know, just bloody. Blood all over the
然後我看著這個人,他的臉上完全…血流滿面。整個球場佈滿血跡
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courts, all over my hands. And I started shaking. And I was just like, you know, “what did
我的整雙手都是血。我開始發抖,然後我就像:「我剛剛做了什麼?
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I just do? What did I just do? Everything could go wrong from this moment forward.”
我剛剛幹了什麼好事?從今以後的一切可能都要變樣了。」
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You know, the police station was actually right across the street from this place. And
警察局其實就在那附近
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I was like what happens if they saw this? What – you know, what if I go to jail?
如果他們看到怎麼辦?如果我進監獄怎麼辦?
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I actually ran home like a coward. I couldn't even face him or anyone else there. I ran
事實上我就像個懦夫一樣跑回家裡,我沒辦法面對他或在場的任何一個人
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home like a coward, washed the blood off my hands, looked at myself in the mirror, and
我像個孬種一樣跑回家,洗掉手上的血跡,看著鏡中的自己
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was just like, “Who are you? Who are you? What are you doing? Why are you so angry?”
說:「你是誰?你到底是誰?你在幹嘛?你在氣什麼?」
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Like, it all started to come together where it was the catalyst for me to start looking
一切似乎開始恢復正常了,這件事是讓我開始審視自己內在的催化劑
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within. Kind of months and months of this toxic relationship, this being aggressive
這數個月來的緊張關係、對人們的攻擊性
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with people, constantly being defensive online or offline, that moment was the catalyst for
經常在網路上或現實中的辯護行為,那一次促使我
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me to say, “Okay, I need to look within and start seeing what I can do to do things
對自己說:「好,我需要好好審視自己的內心世界,看看我該做些什麼讓一切
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differently.”
不同。」
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So that’s when I, you know, hired therapists and coaches and went to emotional intelligence
所以從那時開始,我就找了治療師、教練,參加情緒智商工作坊
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workshops, started asking my friends and family for feedback. I said, “Give me feedback.
開始向我的朋友、家人尋求回饋。我說:「給我一些建議
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I want to hear how I can be better.” I think for so many years I didn't want anyone to
我想聽聽怎麼做我才能變得更好。」我想這麼多年來,我不希望任何人
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tell me how to change. I just said this is who I am. Accept me for who I am.
來告訴我怎麼改變。我覺得這就是我。接受我就是這樣的人
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Yeah.
是
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And that was the catalyst for me wanting to talk about this. Because during that process
而那就是個契機,讓我想要去談論這件事。因為在我打開心胸
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of opening up myself and learning about why I was so defensive or guarded or aggressive
以及了解原因的過程,我整個人生是充滿防衛心、處處警惕、很好鬥的
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my whole life – now, listen. I was a very loving, fun guy. You knew me before then.
過去我是一個有愛心、風趣的人,妳之前就認識我了
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Absolutely.
完全是
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Always loving and fun, but it was like those moments where I was triggered, it was like
總是有愛心、風趣,但就在某些時刻我被觸發了
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I didn’t know how to turn it off.
而我不知道該如何停止
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Yeah.
是
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And I never understood why.
而我從來不懂為什麼
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And then it sounds like from reading the book, there was also a pivotal moment as you were
聽起來我們從書中可以得知,也有一些重要的關鍵時刻
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searching in your own journey and starting to discover, “oh, my goodness. How do I
當你在探索自己的人生旅程時,「噢,我的天,我該怎麼釋放這憤怒的情緒?
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release this anger? How do I not have these triggers? How do I find real happiness? Because
如果沒有這些契機怎麼辦?我要怎麼找到真正的快樂?因為這些該死的唯物主義
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all the bullshit materialism clearly ain’t doing it.” You stumbled upon a documentary
都無法幫助我改善現況。」你無意中發現了一部紀錄片
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that made a huge impact.
對你產生很大的影響
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Yeah, yeah. The Mask You Live In is a powerful documentary that started having these conversations
沒錯,《男孩面具備後的真相》是個很讓人震撼的紀錄片,也因此讓許多諸如此類的對話開始出現
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more and more. With boys, with teens, with men in prison, with all types of men and boys
與男孩、青少年、服刑中的男人,與各式各樣的男人與男孩
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about how we’ve been developed and conditioned to become men in a certain way.
有關我們是怎麼被以特定方式教導、制約成為一個男人
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How ... what it means to be a man in our society, specifically in America. And I think my whole
如何…成為一個「男人」在這社會上代表的意義為何,特別是在美國。而我想我整個人生
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life I was conditioned a certain way to act and to not act. You know, when you’re 7
都被制約在該扮演什麼角色以及不該扮演什麼角色中。當你只是個 7 歲小孩
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years old and your parents tell you to go be kind at school to kids, and then you're
你的父母告訴你在學校要對其他孩子友好,然後你試著
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trying to be nice to people and express yourself and you get shoved in a locker. You say, “okay,
對人們親切以及表達自我,然後你把自己關進箱子裡說:「夠了,
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I don't want to do that anymore if I’m not gonna be accepted.”
如果我不能被接納,我就不想再繼續做下去了
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Yeah.
沒錯
-
Not saying that happened to me, but that’s just kind of like the pattern that kids go
這不是發生在我身上,但有很多孩子會經歷這樣的情況
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through. Where they’re generous, they’re kind, they’re compassionate, they’re caring,
那些慷慨的、親切的、有同情心的、體貼的孩子
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maybe they show emotion, and then they get made fun of.
或許他們曾表現出不悅的情緒,然後就被取笑
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Yeah.
沒錯
-
You know, in the sports teams growing up you weren’t allowed to show emotion. You weren’t
妳知道,在運動團隊裡成長,是不能有任何情緒在的,你不能哭
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allowed to cry, because men don't cry. And the names that you’re called for even acting
因為男人不能哭。然後你會被取綽號,你有任何
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like you have any emotions or like you’re sensitive at all was that you were less than
情緒出現,或是你敏感了點,都會顯得你沒有男子氣概
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a man. They would call you all sorts of names. And so just to fit in, just to be accepted
他們會幫你取那一類綽號,所以你就是得適應,就得被同儕
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by your peers, you had to act a certain way to be cool or to fit in. And I think for me
接納,你必須扮演好「男人」的角色或適應它。
-
that carried on into other areas of my life. I couldn’t just turn it off after those three hours of practice.
我想我也將這樣的情況帶到我生活中的其他領域。我沒有辦法在 3 小時的練習時間結束後停止角色扮演
-
Yeah.
沒錯
-
Then it was with my family at home. I had to act cool. It was with my girlfriends, I
然後跟我的家人相處時,我必須要很酷。跟我的女朋友相處時
-
had to act a certain way. It was with guy friends. I never fully opened up with guys.
我也要扮演該有的樣子。跟同性朋友也是,我從來沒有展現真實的自我在他們面前
-
I didn't have one good guy friend where I could tell anything.
我沒有一個真正的同性好友是可以無話不談的
-
I think 50% of men feel that they don't have a guy friend that they can share stuff with,
我想有一半的男人會覺得他們沒有一個同性好友可以吐苦水
-
whereas women in general, I see you guys getting together every day and talking about things
但是通常女人不會如此,我看妳們每天相處在一起,討論一些
-
you’re insecure about and the fears you have and frustrations you’re feeling from
妳們覺得哪裡感到不安、妳們的恐懼
-
relationships or life or image issues or whatever it may be. You’re talking about these things.
及伴侶關係間或生活或形象問題或任何事情感受到的挫折。妳們在這些話題能侃侃而談
-
Whereas I personally never talked about them. And a lot of the guys that I grew up with
相反地我個人從來不曾談過這些話題,而和我一起成長的同性朋友
-
never talked about any of their insecurities or fears or doubts or concerns, because that’s
也從不談論這些不安全感、恐懼、懷疑、憂心的話題
-
not what it means to be a man. You’re not allowed to show vulnerabilities, at least
因為那不是男人該談論的話題。你不被允許展現脆弱的一面
-
growing up the way I did.
至少在我成長過程中如此
-
And as I started having these conversations with other men I realized, wow. This is like
而我開始與其他男人談論這些話題時,我發現,哇,這幾乎是所有我認識的男人
-
almost every guy that I meet faces this. Except for a few guys who grew up like on a farm
都會面對的問題。除了幾個朋友不會,他們成長的地方像農村
-
or like in a spiritual retreat center where their parents were so loving and open and
或像心靈啟迪中心之類,他們的父母相當地親切、開放
-
wanted them to be more expressive. But for the majority of guys that I know and that
想要他們多多表達自己的情緒。但我認識的大多數人,以及跟我一同成長的朋友
-
I grew up with, that wasn’t the case.
他們大多不是如此
-
And when I started opening up, you know, four years ago I started telling people that I
當我開始敞開內心,大約 4 年前我開始告訴人們
-
was sexually abused and raped by a man when I was five years old. And this is when everything
我 5 歲時曾被一個男人性虐待,這件事改變了
-
started to shift for me, because that was the secret I was unwilling to share, and that
我的世界,因為這是我最不願意提起的事,
-
secret just manifested into toxicity inside of me where I didn't know how to express myself
這個祕密在我心中造成很大的影響,我不知道該怎麼好好的表達我自己的感受
-
in a loving way when I was hurt. So the opposite of love is some type of anger, passive aggressiveness,
當我受到傷害時。愛的反面是憤怒、消極
-
frustration, and that’s the only way I knew how to communicate when I was feeling pain.
挫折,這也是我感到痛苦時唯一的溝通方式
-
And I think there was – and as I started to open up about this and share with my friends,
然後我想…我開始敞開心胸跟朋友、家人談論這個話題
-
with my family, and then more publicly over the months, something incredible happened.
甚至在這個月內更公開地談論,一些難以置信的事發生了
-
So many men would open up back to me. You know, I was terrified to tell people what
許多男性也對我敞開心胸,我過去很害怕告訴人們
-
had happened to me, because I was so ashamed. I felt guilty, I felt insecure, I felt like
在我身上發生什麼事,因為我感到很羞恥。我感到罪惡、不安全感,我覺得
-
no one was gonna love me anymore. They weren’t going to accept me. But when I started to
沒有人會再喜愛我了,沒有人會接納我。但當我開始分享
-
share, men would tell me their deepest, darkest secrets, their biggest insecurities, their
許多男性也告訴我他們最深處、最黑暗的秘密,他們最大的不安全感
-
pain, the things they suffered with, and they would tell me, you know, “I’ve judged
他們的痛苦,他們經歷的事,還有他們會告訴我:「我曾經批評你好一陣子
-
you for so long and now I trust you. Like, I fully trust you now.” Men were like, “I
但現在我相信你,我完全信任你。」那些男性說:「我會支持你
-
will follow you anywhere now that I know this about you and you’re willing to talk about it.”
因為你願意分享這件事,讓我更了解你。」
-
I would get emails and just essays from men saying, you know, “I’ve been married for
我會收到一些男性給我的郵件或短文,上面寫:「我已經結婚
-
25 years. My wife doesn't know that I was sexually abused or that I went through this
25 年,我老婆不知道我以前曾被性虐待,或是說我曾經歷另一件事。」
-
other thing.” It wasn’t always sexual abuse, but the men have gone through a lot
並不全然都是性虐待,但許多男性經歷了一些事
-
of things that they feel like they’re unable to express and talk about.
那些事是他們覺得無法向他人提起的事
-
And I realized, wow, the more I start to share with my friends and family for them to actually
然後我明白,哇,我跟朋友、家人分享得越多,對他們來說
-
see me for the first time and just know me, know what I’ve gone through, know what I’ve
這是他們第一次看到這樣的我,也第一次知道我曾經歷這些事、我的感受
-
felt, I feel like I’m finally able to be myself. And the more I started to share, the
我終於覺得我能真正地做我自己。我分享得越多
-
more I started to heal, and the less those moments or those insecurities had control
我更加感到被治癒了,我也更不容易被那些不好的時刻、不安全感的事物給控制
-
over me. I was able to take my power back, and it’s been an amazing transition.
我又變回過去朝氣蓬勃的我,這是個很驚人的轉變
-
And so I felt like this was more of like a responsibility for me to talk about this thing.
然後我覺得我有責任去談論這些事情
-
Over anything else I’d do, this was more of a process for me to talk about this, for
比其他事還重要,這不僅僅只是談論這件事
-
me to continue to heal, for me to hold myself accountable. Because even though I started
讓我持續受到治癒、對我自己負責任。因為即使我開始
-
to share and heal, last week I’m getting triggered and like aggressive and angry. And,
分享與改善,上週我還是會生氣、具攻擊性
-
you know, passive aggressive still.
還是會消極
-
Patterns exist, and especially ones that we’ve had over the course of our lives.
情況還是存在,尤其是已經在我們生活中紮根的事
-
Exactly.
沒錯
-
You know, 10, 20, 30, 40 years you’ve been doing something one way, it is – it’s
10 年、20 年、30 年、40 年,你一直在持續做某件事,那是…
-
a journey and a process to start to unwire that stuff.
一個旅程與過程,開始去脫離這些東西
-
Exactly.
沒錯
-
So I love that though, because there is something I think really powerful, right, about like
不過我喜歡這樣,因為感覺就像有股力量在支持你,對吧,當你準備好
-
taking a stand and saying, “Okay, I’m gonna talk about this and I’m also gonna
站出來並說出這件事,「好,我準備要談論這些事了,而我也將
-
use this as an opportunity to hold myself to a higher standard. I might not get it perfect,
透過這次機會,把我自己推向一個更高的境界,我可能沒辦法做到完美
-
but at least now I’ve declared like, okay, this is what I’m working on. This is what
但至少我現在正向所有人宣告,這就是我在努力改善的事
-
I’m gonna share. This is what I’m gonna keep sharing. This is what I’m gonna keep
這就是我要跟大家分享的事,我也會一直跟大家分享。這就是我這整個人生
-
going for in my own life.” I think that that’s incredible. And I want to put this
都會持續做下去的事。」我想那真的相當驚人。然後我想要藉由這個話題
-
in a larger context.
來更深入地談論這本書
-
So beyond your own journey, and we’re touching upon this a little bit, but what do you see
所以在你人生旅程中,我們已經稍微窺探其中一小部分,但你瞭解了什麼
-
and what have you seen from writing this book and from talking to so many men and boys about
從寫這本書的過程以及和許多男人、男孩談論有關
-
what’s not working for them in terms of our culture today?
在我們現今的文化中男人不該做什麼,你從中得到了什麼?
-
In general men don't feel like they’re allowed to express themselves in a more vulnerable
通常男人都覺得他們不該表現出脆弱的樣子
-
way because of whatever conditioning they’ve had. It may be