Placeholder Image

字幕列表 影片播放

  • These young people,

    這些年輕人

  • what do they feel is the downside

    他們認為讓北京政府主導

  • of having Beijing in charge?

    會有什麼缺點?

  • It makes us -

    會讓我們…

  • It doesn’t make us stronger.

    沒辦法讓我們更強大

  • I mean the people.

    我指人民

  • It makes us in the fringe

    它使人民處於

  • of the game of power.

    一場權力遊戲的邊緣

  • Hi, welcome to China Uncensored,

    歡迎收看《中國解密》

  • I’m your host Chris Chappell.

    我是主持人 Chris Chappell

  • I’m here in Macau,

    我目前人在澳門

  • China’s other Special Administrative Region.

    中國另一個特別行政區

  • Like neighboring Hong Kong,

    如同鄰近的香港

  • Macau is supposed to be run under China’s

    澳門照理來說也該遵循著

  • One Country, Two Systems policy.

    一國兩制的運作方式

  • And like with Hong Kong,

    但和香港一樣

  • the one country thing is definitely true,

    在「一國」這方面絕對是真的

  • but the two systems partless so.

    但至於「兩制」嘛,就不一定了

  • But unlike in Hong Kong,

    不過與香港不同的是

  • the democratic movement here in Macau

    澳門當地的民主運動

  • is small.

    規模很小

  • Most people seem content

    大多數的人似乎甘於

  • to let the Communist Party have its way

    照著中共的規則走

  • in exchange for economic prosperity.

    以換取經濟的繁榮

  • You know that draconian anti-subversion law,

    還記得 2013 年那個嚴厲的反顛覆法

  • Article 23,

    簡稱第 23 條

  • that half a million Hong Kongers protested against in 2003?

    引發了 50 萬名香港人抗議嗎?

  • Well, in Macau,

    這個嘛,澳門早在

  • it was passed in 2009

    2009 年便通過該法案了

  • without much fuss.

    而且幾乎沒什麼人抗議

  • Dissidents here,

    不過澳門的反對黨

  • perhaps even more so than in Hong Kong,

    比起香港

  • are fighting an uphill battle against the status quo.

    面對的是更艱困的逆境

  • So naturally,

    想當然耳

  • I just had to come here and talk with someone

    我一定要來這裡與同樣

  • who shares my passion for uphill battles

    熱衷於在艱困逆境中

  • against the status quo.

    改變現狀的人談話

  • I sat down with Scott Chiang,

    我訪問了鄭明軒

  • President of the New Macau Association,

    澳門最主要民主派非政府組織

  • a major pro-democracy NGO in Macau.

    新澳門學社的現任理事長

  • Thanks for joining me, Scott.

    明軒,謝謝你參與這次的訪談

  • Why don’t you tell us about

    請幫我們簡單介紹

  • the New Macau Association.

    新澳門學社

  • Well, it’s been one of the, uh,

    新澳門學社是個…

  • People says it’s a flagship democratic association

    人們說它是澳門的龍頭

  • in Macau.

    民主協會

  • I don’t know.

    我不知道

  • Weve been here since the early 90s.

    我們從 1990 年代初期就已成立

  • It’s founded by a bunch of

    新澳門學社是由一群

  • very passionate people

    很有熱忱

  • who care about the future of Macau

    而且關心澳門的人們所創立的

  • because it’s just before the handover

    它成立的時間點剛好是在澳門回歸之前

  • and it’s just after what happened in ’89

    也剛好在 1989 年的

  • in Tainanmen Square.

    天安門事件之後

  • And people genuinely concerned about our future

    有許多人都真的很擔憂澳門

  • under Chinese rule.

    在中國統治下的未來發展

  • Younger generation - I’m part of it -

    包括我在內的年輕一代,

  • emerges in the recent years,

    在最近幾年逐漸崛起

  • and we want to make democrats - true democrats -

    我們希望澳門的民主派

  • survive in Macau in the coming generations.

    真正的民主派能一代傳一代

  • So this organization has been around for a long time.

    既然這個政黨已經成立了蠻長一段時間

  • How have you seen the situation in Macau change

    你對於澳門從 1999 年移交以來的變化

  • since the handover in 1999?

    有什麼看法?

  • Macau has been in ruins in my childhood.

    在我小時候,澳門形同廢墟

  • The 90s is not one of our brightest hours.

    1990 年代的澳門並不是很出色

  • So the expectation was low in the time of handover.

    所以在移交時,人們的期望很低

  • This is in contrast to what happened in Hong Kong.

    這與香港移交時的情況剛好相反

  • And soon after that,

    不久之後

  • we have the opening up of the casino industry.

    我們對外開放了博弈產業

  • And that, adding up with the lot people, tourists,

    再加上許多人

  • coming from mainland China,

    也就是來自中國的旅客

  • gave us what is called the Golden Decade.

    帶給了澳門所謂的「黃金十年」

  • Well now we have the GDP exceeding

    目前我們的國內生產總額 (GDP) 仍舊超越

  • many developed countries.

    許多已發展國家

  • And yes, that set a lot of people very satisfied.

    沒錯,這讓許多人非常安於現況

  • And that also denied a lot of chance that we actually had

    但也因此錯失了許多

  • to fight for our own rights

    爭取權利的機會

  • because people said, “Oh,

    因為人們會說:「噢

  • were having a good time,

    我們現在過得很好啊

  • so why don’t we shut up,

    所以何不乖乖閉嘴

  • and enjoy it while it lasts?”

    享受當下的美好時光呢?

  • So people feel things are better now,

    所以人們覺得在中共的統治下

  • under Communist rule?

    澳門的生活比較好?

  • Naturally.

    那當然

  • And when they acknowledged

    而一旦人們承認

  • the good times come from mainland tourists,

    內地的遊客帶來許多好處

  • and they will think again, when they try to criticize

    他們在批評北京、甚至是地方政府前

  • China or the local government, even -

    便會再三考慮

  • because they know they have the endorsement of Beijing,

    因為他們希望能維持北京政府對他們的支持

  • and they know that Macau’s fate,

    而且在他們的內心深處,也認為

  • in their mind,

    澳門的命運

  • is in the hands of the privileged -

    是掌握在享有特權的人的手裡

  • not in themselves.

    而不是在人民手中

  • I have to say that, sadly,

    可悲的是,我不得不說

  • that’s the truth about many local people.

    許多當地人都對此深信不疑

  • The younger generation are feeling

    幸好,年輕的一代

  • more strongly and strongly and strongly that

    越來越強烈的

  • they need to have a say in what goes on in their town.

    認為他們必須當家作主

  • So I still see hope in that.

    所以我覺得依舊是有希望的

  • These young people,

    這些年輕人

  • what do they feel is the downside

    他們認為讓北京政府主導

  • of having Beijing in charge?

    會有什麼缺點?

  • It makes us -

    會讓我們…

  • It doesn’t make us stronger.

    沒辦法讓我們更強大

  • I mean the people.

    我指人民

  • It makes us in the fringe

    它使我們處於

  • of the game of power.

    一場權力遊戲的邊緣

  • That is one of the things

    而這就是我們必須

  • we want to fight against.

    抗爭的事情之一

  • To change people’s minds and show them,

    我們希望改變人們的想法,讓他們知道

  • no, when you fight it,

    不,你得反擊

  • you may stand a chance.

    這樣才有機會

  • But if you just sit home and wait,

    如果你就只是坐以待斃

  • nothing will happen.

    狀況永遠不會好轉

  • So how does the political situation in Macau

    所以相較於香港,澳門的

  • compare to Hong Kong?

    政治現況如何呢?

  • Macau has a very robust apolitical tradition,

    傳統上,澳門人普遍對政治很冷漠

  • so to say,

    也就是說

  • because not that people are not talking about politics.

    人們並非不討論政治

  • They do,

    他們會討論

  • and they may know more than you might suspect.

    而且可能比你預期的還要更瞭解政治

  • But they fail to connect what is in the news

    但他們無法和新聞事件做連結

  • and what they need to do to change it.

    也不清楚他們能做什麼來改變現狀

  • They may be very openly criticizing Obama.

    他們可能會公開批評歐巴馬

  • They may have a strong opinion against Trump.

    或是對川普表達強烈不滿

  • But they wouldn’t be the same open and vocal,

    但是當牽涉到地方政治時

  • criticizing personnel when it comes to local politics.

    他們卻不用相同的開放 直言不諱的口吻來批評政府

  • Yes, they may complain in local cafes

    是的,他們可能會在當地的咖啡廳裡

  • about this and that,

    抱怨東抱怨西

  • the traffic, housing price

    例如交通和房價這類的事

  • But when you say,

    但當你說

  • Hey, why don’t we do something change that?”

    嘿,那我們何不做點什麼來改變它呢

  • They say, “Nah, it doesn’t work.

    他們會說:「哎,那行不通的

  • I’ve been around more than you - longer than you.

    我見過的世面比你還多、比你還久

  • And I know they don’t work.”

    所以我肯定這是行不通的」

  • That is the general sentiment,

    至少老一輩的

  • at least for the older generations.

    都普遍會這樣想

  • And that sentiment shaped the fate of Macau

    而這樣的想法塑造出澳門

  • for the last decades.

    過去幾十年以來的命運

  • How about the younger generation?

    那年輕一代呢?

  • The younger generation?

    年輕一代嗎?

  • We are more

    我們較…

  • We are better educated.

    我們受到比較好的教育

  • And many of my friends,

    我的朋友之中有不少人

  • when they have the chance to go abroad,

    當他們有機會出國

  • and get a job there,

    並在當地找到一份工作時

  • they choose not to go back

    他們會選擇不再回澳門

  • because they know Macau is not suitable for them

    因為他們知道澳門不適合他們

  • or for their offspring.

    也不適合他們的後代

  • But for those who return,

    但對於那些返回家鄉的人

  • I believe there is hope in them because

    我相信他們是有希望的

  • when they had the chance,

    因為當他們有移民國外的機會

  • and they choose to return to their hometown,

    卻選擇留在家鄉時

  • I expect more from them when it comes to,

    我會期待他們能對於

  • you know,

    你知道

  • changing the place for the better.

    改善澳門有更多的貢獻

  • So how has the implementation of Article 23 in 2009

    那麼 2009 年所實施的第 23 條法案

  • changed Macau?

    如何改變澳門呢?

  • Well, may I disappoint you in saying, “business as usual?”

    嗯,如果我說「一如往昔」,你會覺得失望嗎?

  • Sometimes even we didn’t realize,

    有時甚至連我們都沒有意識到

  • oh, it’s already here

    噢,這條法案已經通過

  • for quite some years.

    好幾年了

  • Yeah, the thing is, when you talk to people saying,

    沒錯,實際情況是,當你跟人們說

  • Oh, this law is bad because it

    「這個法案很不好,因為它

  • diminished civil liberty,

    削弱了公民自由

  • it gives the administration too much power,

    它給政府過多的權力

  • it makes criminal charges against, you know,

    它能讓言論自由變成

  • freedom of speech -“

    一種刑事罪」

  • And people say, “what are you afraid of,

    人們會說:「你是在怕什麼?

  • if youre not going to overthrow Beijing?”

    反正你又沒打算要推翻北京」

  • Nonetheless, it is harmful to civil society.

    然而,這條法案是對民間社會有害的

  • But pretty much nobody listened,

    但幾乎沒什麼人聽得進去

  • unlike in Hong Kong.

    不像是香港

  • So do you think Macau still has

    你認為澳門還存在著

  • the One Country, Two System policy?

    一國兩制政策嗎?

  • In the first part, I’m pretty confident.

    我只肯定前半部分

  • And I understand you were recently interviewed by police

    我知道你在今年某次的抗議行動之後

  • after a protest earlier this year.

    遭到警方的訊問

  • Which interview do you mean?

    你指的是哪一次的訊問?

  • How many?

    總共有幾次啊?

  • Are you concerned for your safety?

    你是否擔心你的安全?

  • I lost count, actually.

    其實已經多到數不清了

  • Am I safe in this room?

    我在這裡安全嗎?

  • Should I be seen with you?

    我如果被人看到和你在一起,會怎樣嗎?

  • Well, you film it.

    這個嘛,你都在攝影了

  • I guess that’s true.

    也對啦

  • I shouldve thought about that.

    我早該想到這問題的

  • No, as I told you,

    其實不會啦,就像我跟你說的

  • we were relatively safe,

    我們相對來說是安全的

  • or not worried by those up there

    或者說是不需要擔心那些上位者

  • because we are weak

    因為相較於

  • in comparison to our counterparts in Hong Kong.

    另個特別行政區香港,我們的聲勢薄弱

  • We do not constitute a critical minority in the house

    我們在立法會內不構成

  • of legislation.

    關鍵少數

  • And we don’t mobilize as much as those in Hong Kong.

    而且我們的動員力也不如香港

  • And how do you feel about that perceived weakness?

    你如何看待被別人認為很弱小這件事?

  • It is not justperceived.”

    不只是別人認為而已

  • It is backed by hard fact.

    它同時也具備強而有力的事實根據

  • And that is both a blessing and curse, right?

    這其實是兩面刃,對吧?

  • Being weak is not a good thing,

    弱不是一件好事

  • but then it kinda protected you from a lot of attacks.

    但當個弱者能保護自己免於遭到許多攻擊

  • And oftentimes we think to ourselves,

    我們經常會問自己:

  • Have we been doing the utmost that we can do?”

    「我們有盡最大努力了嗎?」

  • We are pretty much the leading democrats in Macau.

    我們基本上是澳門最大的民主派

  • There’s not much competition there.

    沒什麼競爭者

  • Is it because we are doing good enough,

    這是因為我們已經做得夠好了

  • or is it because it’s not a very attractive

    或是因為這不是一個非常吸引人的

  • career path?

    人生道路?

  • Then we have to remind ourselves that we have to

    然後,我們必須不斷提醒自己

  • do better than we have been.

    我們要不斷求進步

  • Being weak can be a motivation.

    「弱」也可以是一個動力

  • What is your hope for the future of Macau?

    你對澳門的未來抱持著什麼希望?

  • Well as I told you,

    正如同我所說的

  • the younger generation has a lot of potential.

    年輕一代有許多潛力

  • Information is easier to obtain now.

    現在比以往更容易取得資訊

  • It’s harder to keep your people blind and deaf

    外面一旦發生什麼事情,政府很難將人民

  • from what’s happening outside.

    隔絕在外

  • And what’s happening in Hong Kong and Taiwan has been a

    而香港和台灣目前所面臨到的情況

  • very, very, very visual alarm

    對澳門人來說

  • for people in Macau.

    是個非常非常重要的警訊

  • Some people will take that as an alert,

    有些人會以此作為警惕

  • sayingwe shall not move to that direction.

    認為「我們不能犯下同樣的錯誤

  • Macau is no place for extremists.”

    澳門不能容許極端分子的存在」

  • But then younger generation will see opportunities,

    但年輕一代則是看到契機

  • saying we may not need to do the same thing,

    認為我們或許不用重蹈覆轍

  • but we can, nonetheless, take things into our own hands

    但可以將某些權利掌握在自己手中

  • instead of putting it up to somebody else.

    而不是將它拱手讓人

  • Well thank you again.

    再次感謝你

  • That was Scott Chiang,

    這位是鄭明軒

  • president of the New Macau Association.

    新澳門學社的現任理事長

  • Thank you - thank you.

    - 謝謝你 - 謝謝你

These young people,

這些年輕人

字幕與單字

影片操作 你可以在這邊進行「影片」的調整,以及「字幕」的顯示

B1 中級 中文 香港 北京 法案 政府 中國 年輕

爭取民主的另一箇中國。澳門|中國無刪減 (The Fight for Democracy in the OTHER China: Macau | China Uncensored)

  • 255 14
    蔡政霖 發佈於 2021 年 01 月 14 日
影片單字