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  • Today I'm going to talk to you about the problem of other minds.

    今天我要和大家談談心智的問題

  • And the problem I'm going to talk about

    我要談的

  • is not the familiar one from philosophy,

    不是大家熟悉的哲學問題

  • which is, "How can we know

    不是"我們怎麼知道

  • whether other people have minds?"

    別人有心智?"

  • That is, maybe you have a mind,

    說不定你有心智

  • and everyone else is just a really convincing robot.

    其他人只是很像真人的機器人

  • So that's a problem in philosophy,

    這是哲學問題

  • but for today's purposes I'm going to assume

    而在這場演講中,我假設

  • that many people in this audience have a mind,

    這裡大部分的觀眾都有心智

  • and that I don't have to worry about this.

    我就不必費心在這個問題上了

  • There is a second problem that is maybe even more familiar to us

    第二個問題我們可能更熟悉

  • as parents and teachers and spouses

    身為父母、老師、丈夫妻子

  • and novelists,

    還有小說家

  • which is, "Why is it so hard

    我們想問,"為什麼我們很難

  • to know what somebody else wants or believes?"

    知道別人要什麼或想什麼?"

  • Or perhaps, more relevantly,

    或者更貼切來說

  • "Why is it so hard to change what somebody else wants or believes?"

    "為什麼我們很難改變別人要的或想的?"

  • I think novelists put this best.

    我覺得小說家解釋得最好

  • Like Philip Roth, who said,

    像菲利浦羅斯說的

  • "And yet, what are we to do about this terribly significant business

    "而我們要如何處理「他人」

  • of other people?

    這件無比重要的大事?"

  • So ill equipped are we all,

    我們資質不足

  • to envision one another's interior workings

    難以窺見彼此內心的思慮

  • and invisible aims."

    與無法捉摸的意向"

  • So as a teacher and as a spouse,

    而身為老師、妻子

  • this is, of course, a problem I confront every day.

    這自然也是我每天都面對的問題

  • But as a scientist, I'm interested in a different problem of other minds,

    但身為科學家,我感興趣的是另一個問題

  • and that is the one I'm going to introduce to you today.

    也就是我今天要向大家介紹的

  • And that problem is, "How is it so easy

    這個問題是,"為什麼我們這麼容易

  • to know other minds?"

    就能了解他人的心智?"

  • So to start with an illustration,

    先看看這張照片

  • you need almost no information,

    你幾乎不需要其他線索

  • one snapshot of a stranger,

    隨便看一眼這個陌生人

  • to guess what this woman is thinking,

    就能猜出這個女人在想什麼

  • or what this man is.

    或這個男人在想什麼

  • And put another way, the crux of the problem is

    換句話說,問題的關鍵

  • the machine that we use for thinking about other minds,

    是我們用以思考別人心智的機制

  • our brain, is made up of pieces, brain cells,

    也就是大腦,是由許多腦細胞組成

  • that we share with all other animals, with monkeys

    這些細胞和其他動物沒什麼不同,和猴子

  • and mice and even sea slugs.

    和老鼠,甚至海參都差不多

  • And yet, you put them together in a particular network,

    不過,把這些細胞用特別的方式組織在一起

  • and what you get is the capacity to write Romeo and Juliet.

    造出來的大腦就能寫出羅密歐與茱麗葉

  • Or to say, as Alan Greenspan did,

    或者,像葛林斯潘說的

  • "I know you think you understand what you thought I said,

    "我知道你以為你明白你認為我所說的

  • but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard

    不過我不確定你瞭解:你所聽到的

  • is not what I meant."

    並非我真正的意思"

  • (Laughter)

    (笑聲)

  • So, the job of my field of cognitive neuroscience

    認知神經科學的工作

  • is to stand with these ideas,

    就是思考這些問題

  • one in each hand.

    同時比較分析這些問題

  • And to try to understand how you can put together

    並且試著了解為什麼

  • simple units, simple messages over space and time, in a network,

    把簡單的細胞和訊息組織起來

  • and get this amazing human capacity to think about minds.

    人類就有驚人的能力,能思考他人心智

  • So I'm going to tell you three things about this today.

    我今天要談三件事

  • Obviously the whole project here is huge.

    這個研究計畫很龐大

  • And I'm going to tell you just our first few steps

    我想談談計畫的頭幾個步驟 --

  • about the discovery of a special brain region

    我們是怎麼發現腦中有特定的區塊

  • for thinking about other people's thoughts.

    負責思考其他人的想法

  • Some observations on the slow development of this system

    以及,這種能力發展緩慢

  • as we learn how to do this difficult job.

    所以我們很晚才學會思考別人的想法

  • And then finally, to show that some of the differences

    最後,說明道德判斷

  • between people, in how we judge others,

    每個人不同

  • can be explained by differences in this brain system.

    這和每個人的大腦差異有關

  • So first, the first thing I want to tell you is that

    首先,我想告訴各位

  • there is a brain region in the human brain, in your brains,

    人類大腦有個區塊

  • whose job it is to think about other people's thoughts.

    負責思考其他人的想法

  • This is a picture of it.

    請看這張圖

  • It's called the Right Temporo-Parietal Junction.

    這個區域叫右顳顱頂接縫區

  • It's above and behind your right ear.

    在你右耳後面上方

  • And this is the brain region you used when you saw the pictures I showed you,

    你使用這個區塊,處理我剛才給你看的照片

  • or when you read Romeo and Juliet

    或讀羅密歐與茱麗葉

  • or when you tried to understand Alan Greenspan.

    或想辦法理解葛林斯潘在說什麼

  • And you don't use it for solving any other kinds of logical problems.

    你不會用這個區塊處理任何其他邏輯問題

  • So this brain region is called the Right TPJ.

    好,這個區塊就叫RTPJ

  • And this picture shows the average activation

    而這張照片顯示一般人的反應

  • in a group of what we call typical human adults.

    一群所謂普通成年人的反應

  • They're MIT undergraduates.

    一群麻省理工大學生

  • (Laughter)

    (笑聲)

  • The second thing I want to say about this brain system

    關於大腦,我想談的第二點是

  • is that although we human adults

    雖然成人

  • are really good at understanding other minds,

    對了解別人心智很拿手

  • we weren't always that way.

    但這不是天生的

  • It takes children a long time to break into the system.

    小孩子要很久才會使用這項能力

  • I'm going to show you a little bit of that long, extended process.

    我稍微介紹一下這個漫長的學習過程

  • The first thing I'm going to show you is a change between age three and five,

    首先我想展現三歲和五歲小孩間的不同

  • as kids learn to understand

    看看小孩學會了解

  • that somebody else can have beliefs that are different from their own.

    別人的想法和自己可能不一樣

  • So I'm going to show you a five-year-old

    我要給各位看一個五歲的小孩

  • who is getting a standard kind of puzzle

    他在做一個常見的測驗

  • that we call the false belief task.

    叫做"錯誤信念作業"

  • Rebecca Saxe (Video): This is the first pirate. His name is Ivan.

    這個海盜叫做艾文

  • And you know what pirates really like?

    你知道海盜最喜歡什麼嗎? --什麼?

  • Child: What? RS: Pirates really like cheese sandwiches.

    海盜最喜歡起士三明治

  • Child: Cheese? I love cheese!

    起士?我最喜歡起士了!

  • RS: Yeah. So Ivan has this cheese sandwich,

    嗯,然後艾文吃他的起士三明治

  • and he says, "Yum yum yum yum yum!

    他說:"好吃、好吃、好吃

  • I really love cheese sandwiches."

    我最喜歡起士三明治了"

  • And Ivan puts his sandwich over here, on top of the pirate chest.

    然後艾文把三明治放在這裡,放在海盜的箱子上

  • And Ivan says, "You know what? I need a drink with my lunch."

    他說:我要喝點東西配午餐

  • And so Ivan goes to get a drink.

    然後艾文就走了,去喝飲料

  • And while Ivan is away

    艾文不在的時候

  • the wind comes,

    一陣風吹來,呼...

  • and it blows the sandwich down onto the grass.

    把艾文的三明治吹到草地上

  • And now, here comes the other pirate.

    然後又來了第二個海盜

  • This pirate is called Joshua.

    這個海盜叫做約書亞

  • And Joshua also really loves cheese sandwiches.

    約書亞也很喜歡起士三明治

  • So Joshua has a cheese sandwich and he says,

    約書亞也在吃起士三明治

  • "Yum yum yum yum yum! I love cheese sandwiches."

    他說:"好吃、好吃、好吃,我最喜歡起士三明治了!"

  • And he puts his cheese sandwich over here on top of the pirate chest.

    然後把他的起士三明治放在海盜箱上

  • Child: So, that one is his.

    所以這是他的起士三明治

  • RS: That one is Joshua's. That's right.

    對,這是約書亞的三明治

  • Child: And then his went on the ground.

    然後艾文的掉在地上

  • RS: That's exactly right.

    沒錯

  • Child: So he won't know which one is his.

    所以他不知道哪個三明治是他的

  • RS: Oh. So now Joshua goes off to get a drink.

    嗯,然後約書亞也跑去拿飲料

  • Ivan comes back and he says, "I want my cheese sandwich."

    艾文回來了,他說:我要我的起士三明治

  • So which one do you think Ivan is going to take?

    所以你覺得他會拿哪一個?

  • Child: I think he is going to take that one.

    我覺得他會拿那一個

  • RS: Yeah, you think he's going to take that one? All right. Let's see.

    喔,你覺得他會拿那個嗎?好,等一下看看

  • Oh yeah, you were right. He took that one.

    對,你說的沒錯,艾文拿那一個

  • So that's a five-year-old who clearly understands

    這個五歲小還很清楚

  • that other people can have false beliefs

    別人可能有錯誤信念

  • and what the consequences are for their actions.

    以及行為的結果是什麼

  • Now I'm going to show you a three-year-old

    現在我要請各位看一個三歲的小孩

  • who got the same puzzle.

    他接受同一個測驗

  • RS: And Ivan says, "I want my cheese sandwich."

    然後艾文說:我要我的起士三明治

  • Which sandwich is he going to take?

    他會拿哪一個三明治呢?

  • Do you think he's going to take that one? Let's see what happens.

    你覺得他會拿那個三明治嗎?等一下我們看看

  • Let's see what he does. Here comes Ivan.

    我們來看看艾文會拿哪一個,艾文來了

  • And he says, "I want my cheese sandwich."

    他說:"我要我的起士三明治"

  • And he takes this one.

    他拿了這個三明治

  • Uh-oh. Why did he take that one?

    喔,他為什麼拿這個三明治呢?

  • Child: His was on the grass.

    "他的三明治掉在地上"

  • So the three-year-old does two things differently.

    所以三歲小孩的想法有兩個地方不一樣

  • First, he predicts Ivan will take the sandwich

    首先,他認為艾文會拿

  • that's really his.

    真正屬於他的三明治

  • And second, when he sees Ivan taking the sandwich where he left his,

    其次,當他看到艾文拿放在他原先地方的三明治

  • where we would say he's taking that one because he thinks it's his,

    我們覺得是因為艾文以為那是他的三明治

  • the three-year-old comes up with another explanation:

    這個三歲的小孩卻有別的解釋

  • He's not taking his own sandwich because he doesn't want it,

    他說艾文不拿他的三明治,因為他不想要了

  • because now it's dirty, on the ground.

    因為那個三明治掉在地上弄髒了

  • So that's why he's taking the other sandwich.

    所以艾文才拿另一個三明治

  • Now of course, development doesn't end at five.

    當然大腦發展不會在五歲停止

  • And we can see the continuation of this process

    我們可以看到這個過程一直持續下去

  • of learning to think about other people's thoughts

    我們不停學習思考別人的心智

  • by upping the ante

    我們問小孩更多問題

  • and asking children now, not for an action prediction,

    然後,不是請他們預測行為

  • but for a moral judgment.

    而是請他們下道德判斷

  • So first I'm going to show you the three-year-old again.

    首先我再請各位看剛剛那個三歲小孩

  • RS.: So is Ivan being mean and naughty for taking Joshua's sandwich?

    那艾文是不是故意調皮搗蛋,才拿約書亞的三明治?

  • Child: Yeah.

  • RS: Should Ivan get in trouble for taking Joshua's sandwich?

    那我們是不是要處罰艾文?

  • Child: Yeah.

  • So it's maybe not surprising he thinks it was mean of Ivan

    或許我們不意外這個小朋友會認為艾文是故意

  • to take Joshua's sandwich,

    要拿約書亞的三明治

  • since he thinks Ivan only took Joshua's sandwich

    因為他覺得艾文拿約書亞的三明治

  • to avoid having to eat his own dirty sandwich.

    是因為不想吃他自己髒掉的三明治

  • But now I'm going to show you the five-year-old.

    不過現在我想給各位看五歲小孩的反應

  • Remember the five-year-old completely understood

    記得這個五歲小孩很清楚

  • why Ivan took Joshua's sandwich.

    為什麼艾文要拿約書亞的三明治

  • RS: Was Ivan being mean and naughty

    艾文是不是故意調皮搗蛋

  • for taking Joshua's sandwich?

    要拿約書亞的三明治?

  • Child: Um, yeah.

    嗯,對

  • And so, it is not until age seven

    所以,一直要到七歲

  • that we get what looks more like an adult response.

    小孩的反應才會比較像成人

  • RS: Should Ivan get in trouble for taking Joshua's sandwich?

    我們是不是要處罰艾文,因為他拿了約書亞的三明治?

  • Child: No, because the wind should get in trouble.

    不對,要處罰風才對

  • He says the wind should get in trouble

    他說要處罰風才對

  • for switching the sandwiches.

    因為風把三明治調換了

  • (Laughter)

    (笑聲)

  • And now what we've started to do in my lab

    目前我的實驗室在進行的實驗

  • is to put children into the brain scanner

    是把兒童放在掃描儀器裡

  • and ask what's going on in their brain

    觀察他們大腦的反應

  • as they develop this ability to think about other people's thoughts.

    看看發展思考他人心智能力的期間,大腦的狀況

  • So the first thing is that in children we see this same brain region, the Right TPJ,

    首先我們看到兒童腦中同一個區塊,RTPJ

  • being used while children are thinking about other people.

    也在思考他人心志時活動

  • But it's not quite like the adult brain.

    但和成人的腦有點不同

  • So whereas in the adults, as I told you,

    成人的腦,像我剛才說的

  • this brain region is almost completely specialized --

    這個區塊幾乎完全特化

  • it does almost nothing else except for thinking about other people's thoughts --

    別的都不做,只用來思考別人的心智

  • in children it's much less so,

    兒童的腦則不然

  • when they are age five to eight,

    兒童在五歲到八歲

  • the age range of the children I just showed you.

    也就是剛才的兒童所屬的年齡範圍

  • And actually if we even look at eight to 11-year-olds,

    甚至在八歲到11歲

  • getting into early adolescence,

    接近青春期的時候

  • they still don't have quite an adult-like brain region.

    腦中區塊的情況和成人還是不太一樣

  • And so, what we can see is that over the course of childhood

    因此,我們發現整個童年時期

  • and even into adolescence,

    甚至一直到青春期

  • both the cognitive system,

    我們的認知系統

  • our mind's ability to think about other minds,

    也就是用自己的心智思考他人心志的能力

  • and the brain system that supports it

    還有認知背後的大腦系統

  • are continuing, slowly, to develop.

    都還在逐漸緩慢發展

  • But of course, as you're probably aware,

    但是,或許各位也注意到

  • even in adulthood,

    即使到了成年

  • people differ from one another in how good they are

    每個人的認知能力還是不同,每個人是否擅長思考他人心智

  • at thinking of other minds, how often they do it

    思考頻率

  • and how accurately.

    還有結果是否正確,都各不相同

  • And so what we wanted to know was, could differences among adults

    我們想問,成人間的不同

  • in how they think about other people's thoughts

    在思考別人想法上的不同

  • be explained in terms of differences in this brain region?

    是不是和每個人大腦這個區塊的差別有關

  • So, the first thing that we did is we gave adults a version

    首先我們給成人

  • of the pirate problem that we gave to the kids.

    類似海盜問題的測驗

  • And I'm going to give that to you now.

    現在我也給各位看看

  • So Grace and her friend are on a tour of a chemical factory,

    葛瑞絲和她朋友去參觀化學工廠

  • and they take a break for coffee.

    他們想休息一下,喝杯咖啡

  • And Grace's friend asks for some sugar in her coffee.

    葛瑞絲的朋友說她的咖啡要加糖

  • Grace goes to make the coffee

    葛瑞絲去泡咖啡

  • and finds by the coffee a pot

    發現咖啡旁有個罐子

  • containing a white powder, which is sugar.

    裡面的白色粉末是糖粉

  • But the powder is labeled "Deadly Poison,"

    但罐子上寫 "劇毒"

  • so Grace thinks that the powder is a deadly poison.

    所以葛瑞絲以為罐子裡的粉末是毒藥

  • And she puts it in her friend's coffee.

    然後她把粉末放到朋友的咖啡裡

  • And her friend drinks the coffee, and is fine.

    她朋友喝了咖啡,但安然無恙

  • How many people think it was morally permissible

    有人認為葛瑞思把粉末放到朋友的咖啡杯

  • for Grace to put the powder in the coffee?

    是合乎道德的嗎?

  • Okay. Good. (Laughter)

    好,非常好 (笑聲)

  • So we ask people, how much should Grace be blamed

    接著我們問這件事葛瑞絲要付多少責任

  • in this case, which we call a failed attempt to harm?

    這種情況叫做企圖傷害未遂

  • And we can compare that to another case,

    我們可以拿來和另一個情況比較

  • where everything in the real world is the same.

    其他條件都一樣

  • The powder is still sugar, but what's different is what Grace thinks.

    罐裡的粉末還是糖粉,唯一不同的是葛瑞絲的想法

  • Now she thinks the powder is sugar.

    在這第二種情況中,葛瑞絲覺得那個粉末是糖粉

  • And perhaps unsurprisingly, if Grace thinks the powder is sugar

    當然如果葛瑞絲認為那是糖粉

  • and puts it in her friend's coffee,

    而加到朋友的咖啡裡

  • people say she deserves no blame at all.

    多數人會認為葛瑞絲沒有錯

  • Whereas if she thinks the powder was poison, even though it's really sugar,

    但如果葛瑞絲認為那是毒藥還把它加到朋友的咖啡裡,即使實際上那是糖粉

  • now people say she deserves a lot of blame,

    多數人會認為葛瑞絲該受罰

  • even though what happened in the real world was exactly the same.

    雖然最後的結果其實和前一個狀況一樣

  • And in fact, they say she deserves more blame

    還有,多數人認為在企圖傷害未遂的情況中

  • in this case, the failed attempt to harm,

    葛瑞絲要負更多責任

  • than in another case,

    而在另一個情況下,她不必負太多責任

  • which we call an accident.

    這種情況叫意外

  • Where Grace thought the powder was sugar,

    這時葛瑞絲認為罐子裡的粉末是糖粉