"What surprised you about the book?"

這本書最讓你驚訝的地方是什麼？

And I say, "That I got to write it."

我回答，我能夠來寫這本書。

I would have never imagined that.

我從沒想過，

Not in my wildest dreams did I think --

再瘋狂的夢裡也沒有 －

I don't even consider myself to be an author.

我從沒想過當個作家。

And I'm often asked,

也常有人問我，

"Why do you think so many people have read this?

你覺得為何有這麼多人讀這本書？

This thing's selling still about a million copies a month."

到現在每個月還有大約一百萬本的銷量。

And I think it's because spiritual emptiness

我認為這是由於心靈的空虛，

is a universal disease.

已經成為普遍的通病。

I think inside at some point, we put our heads down on the pillow and we go,

我想每個人都曾經把頭埋在枕頭裡，說：

"There's got to be more to life than this."

「人生一定不只是這樣。」

Get up in the morning, go to work, come home and watch TV,

早上起床，去上班，回家，看電視，

go to bed, get up in the morning, go to work, come home, watch TV, go to bed,

上床睡覺，早上起床，去上班，回家，看電視，上床睡覺，

go to parties on weekends.

週末去參加派對。

A lot of people say, "I'm living." No, you're not living -- that's just existing.

很多人說：「我在過生活。」不，你不是在過生活 － 你只是活著。

Just existing.

只是活著。

I really think that there's this inner desire.

我真的認為有一種內在的渴求。

I do believe what Chris said; I believe that you're not an accident.

我相信 Chris 剛才說的，我相信你的存在不是偶然的。

Your parents may not have planned you, but I believe God did.

你的父母可能沒有計劃要生你，但是我相信神有。

I think there are accidental parents; there's no doubt about that.

有的人是意外成為父母的，這是事實。

I don't think there are accidental kids.

我不認為有「意外的小孩」。

And I think you matter.

我認為你很重要。

I think you matter to God; I think you matter to history;

我認為你對神很重要，我認為你對歷史很重要，

I think you matter to this universe.

我認為你對這個宇宙很重要。

And I think that the difference

我認為這些生活層次的差異：

between what I call the survival level of living, the success level of living,

生存的層次、成功的層次、

and the significance level of living is:

價值的層次，差異在於

Do you figure out, "What on Earth am I here for?"

你知不知道你來到世上到底是為了什麼？

I meet a lot of people who are very smart,

我見到過很多非常聰明的人，

and say, "But why can't I figure out my problems?"

他們問：「可是為什麼我沒辦法解決自己的問題？」

And I meet a lot of people who are very successful,

我也見過很多非常成功的人，

who say, "Why don't I feel more fulfilled?

他們問：「為什麼我感覺不充實？

Why do I feel like a fake?

為什麼我覺得自己很虛偽？

Why do I feel like I've got to pretend that I'm more than I really am?"

為什麼我感覺

I think that comes down to this issue of meaning, of significance, of purpose.

我必須假裝得比真正的自己更了不起？」

I think it comes down to this issue of:

我認為這些最終都回歸到人生的意義、價值，人生的目的。

"Why am I here? What am I here for? Where am I going?"

我認為這要回歸到

These are not religious issues.

「我為什麼在這裡？我在這裡做什麼？我要往哪裡去？」

They're human issues.

這些不是宗教問題 －

I wanted to tell Michael before he spoke that I really appreciate what he does,

這些是人的問題。

because it makes my life work a whole lot easier.

我想對 Michael 說，

As a pastor, I do see a lot of kooks.

我很感謝他剛才所說的，

And I have learned that there are kooks in every area of life.

因為這讓我的工作容易多了。

Religion doesn't have a monopoly on that,

身為牧師，我會遇到很多怪人。

but there are plenty of religious kooks.

我發現在生活中的任何領域，都可能出現怪人。

There are secular kooks; there are smart kooks, dumb kooks.

宗教在這一方面

There are people -- a lady came up to me the other day,

沒有獨大的特權，但是的確有不少宗教怪人。

and she had a white piece of paper -- Michael, you'll like this one --

也有非宗教的怪人、聰明的怪人、愚蠢的怪人。

and she said, "What do you see in it?"

有天一位女士來找我，

And I looked at it and I said, "Oh, I don't see anything."

拿著一張白紙 － Michael, 你一定會喜歡這個故事 －

And she goes, "Well, I see Jesus," and started crying and left.

她問：「你看到了什麼？」

I'm going, "OK," you know? "Fine."

我看著那張白紙，說：「什麼也沒看到。」

(Laughter)

她說：「我看到耶穌。」然後哭著走了。

Good for you.

我說，ok, 很好。

When the book became the best-selling book in the world for the last three years,

嗯，

I kind of had my little crisis.

很好。

And that was: What is the purpose of this?

過去這三年，這本書成為全球暢銷書，

Because it brought in enormous amounts of money.

我也面臨到自己的小危機。

When you write the best-selling book in the world,

那就是，這件事的目的是什麼？

it's tons and tons of money.

因為它帶來了龐大的金錢。

And it brought in a lot of attention, neither of which I wanted.

當你寫出全世界最暢銷的書，

When I started Saddleback Church, I was 25 years old.

你會得到非常非常多的錢。

I started it with one other family in 1980.

還有很多的矚目，而這兩樣我都不想要。

And I decided that I was never going to go on TV,

我 25 歲成立 Saddleback 教會，

because I didn't want to be a celebrity.

我和另外一家人在 1980 年共同成立教會。

I didn't want to be a, quote, "evangelist, televangelist" --

我當時就決定我永遠不要上電視，

that's not my thing.

因為我不想成為名人，

And all of the sudden, it brought a lot of money and a lot of attention.

我不想成為所謂的「福音派」、「電視福音派」－

I don't think --

那不是我會做的事。

now, this is a worldview,

突然之間，這本書帶來很多的金錢和矚目。

and I will tell you, everybody's got a worldview.

我不認為 －

Everybody's betting their life on something.

這是我的世界觀，我可以告訴你，每個人都有自己的世界觀。

You're betting your life on something,

每個人都將自己的人生押注在某件事物上。

you just better know why you're betting what you're betting on.

你也將你自己的人生押注在某件事物上 －

So, everybody's betting their life on something.

你最好弄清楚自己為什麼押注在你所押注的這件事物上。

And when I, you know, made a bet,

每個人都將自己的人生押注在某件事物上，

I happened to believe that Jesus was who he said he was.

而我下注的時候，我就是相信

And I believe in a pluralistic society,

耶穌就是他自己所稱的那個人。

everybody's betting on something.

不過每個人都有 － 我相信在多元化的社會裡 －

And when I started the church,

每個人都押注在某件事物上。

you know, I had no plans to do what it's doing now.

我成立教會的時候，

And then when I wrote this book,

我並沒有計劃要做教會現在做的這些事情。

and all of a sudden, it just took off,

當我寫完這本書，

and I started saying, now, what's the purpose of this?

突然之間

Because as I started to say,

大受歡迎，

I don't think you're given money or fame

我開始問，這件事的目的是什麼？

for your own ego, ever.

因為我從來不認為，

I just don't believe that.

你能得到金錢或名氣，

And when you write a book that the first sentence of the book is,

目的是滿足你的自我意識。

"It's not about you,"

我就是不相信。

then, when all of a sudden it becomes the best-selling book in history,

當你寫了一本書，書裡的第一句話是：

you've got to figure, well, I guess it's not about me.

「生命的重心不是在你」，

That's kind of a no-brainer.

然後，突然之間

So, what is it for?

這本書成為史上最暢銷的書籍，

And I began to think about what I call the "stewardship of affluence"

你應該要明白，這件事的重點不是在於你。

and the "stewardship of influence."

不用動腦筋也該想到。

So I believe, essentially, leadership is stewardship.

所以，究竟是為了什麼？

That if you are a leader in any area --

我開始思考「財富的代管人」，

in business, in politics, in sports, in art,

以及「影響力的代管人」。

in academics, in any area --

我相信身為領導者，是要作代管人。

you don't own it.

如果你在任何領域居領導地位 －

You are a steward of it.

在商界、政壇、體育、藝術、

For instance, that's why I believe in protecting the environment.

學術界，任何領域 －

This is not my planet.

你並不是所有者，

It wasn't mine before I was born, it's not going to be mine after I die,

而是代管人。

I'm just here for 80 years and then that's it.

舉例來說，這就是我為什麼相信環保。

I was debating the other day on a talk show,

這個地球不是屬於我的。在我出生之前它不是我的，

and the guy was challenging me and he'd go,

在我死後它也不會是我的。

"What's a pastor doing on protecting the environment?"

我在這裡只會待上 80 年，僅此而已。

And I asked this guy, I said, "Well, do you believe

有天我上談話節目進行辯論，

that human beings are responsible

挑戰我論點的人說：

to make the world a little bit better place for the next generation?

「牧師跟環境保護有什麼關係？」

Do you think we have a stewardship here, to take the environment seriously?"

我問他：「你相不相信

And he said, "No."

人類有責任

I said, "Oh, you don't?"

為了下一代使這個世界變得更好？

I said, "Let me make this clear again:

你認為我們是不是應該負起代管人的責任，

Do you believe that as human beings -- I'm not talking about religion --

認真看待環境議題？」

do you believe that as human beings, it is our responsibility

他回答：「不。」

to take care of this planet,

我說：「你不這樣認為？讓我再問一次。

and make it just a little bit better for the next generation?"

你相不相信身為人類 － 我不是在談論宗教 －

And he said, "No. Not any more than any other species."

你相不相信身為人類，我們有責任

When he said the word "species," he was revealing his worldview.

為了下一代來照顧地球，使它變得稍微好一點？」

And he was saying,

他說：「不。

"I'm no more responsible to take care of this environment than a duck is."

我們的責任不比其它物種的大。」

Well now, I know a lot of times we act like ducks,

當他說出「物種」，就顯露了他的世界觀。

but you're not a duck.

他說：「我對環境保護的責任，

You're not a duck.

並不比一隻鴨子該負的責任大。」

And you are responsible -- that's my worldview.

有時候我們的行為的確很像鴨子，

And so, you need to understand what your worldview is.

但你並不是鴨子。

The problem is most people never really think it through.

你不是一隻鴨子。

They never really ...

而且你有責任 － 這是我的世界觀。

codify it or qualify it or quantify it,

所以，你需要了解你的世界觀是什麼。

and say, "This is what I believe in. This is why I believe what I believe."

問題是，大多數的人從來沒有把自己的世界觀想清楚。

I don't personally have enough faith to be an atheist.

他們從來沒有真正地把它

But you may, you may.

條理化，或定義它，或量化它，

Your worldview, though, does determine everything else in your life,

然後說：「這就是我所相信的。

because it determines your decisions;

這就是我為什麼相信我所相信的。」

it determines your relationships;

對我個人來說，我沒有足夠的信心成為無神論者。

it determines your level of confidence.

但是你可能有。

It determines, really, everything in your life.

然而，你的世界觀，將會影響你生命中的所有一切，

What we believe, obviously --

因為它將影響你的決定，

and you know this -- determines our behavior,

影響你的人際關係，

and our behavior determines what we become in life.

影響你的自信心。

So all of this money started pouring in,

它真的會影響你生命中的所有事。

and all of this fame started pouring in.

我們所相信的，顯然 －

And I'm going, what do I do with this?

你也很清楚 － 影響我們的行為，

My wife and I first made five decisions on what to do with the money.

而我們的行為將決定我們生命的樣貌。

We said, "First, we're not going to use it on ourselves."

所以當這些錢開始湧進來，

I didn't go out and buy a bigger house.

名聲開始湧進來，

I don't own a guesthouse.

我想，我要拿它怎麼辦？

I still drive the same four year-old Ford that I've driven.

我太太和我為這些錢的用途做了 5 個決定。

We just said, we're not going to use it on us.

我們決定，第一點，

The second thing was,

我們不會把這些錢用在我們自己身上。

I stopped taking a salary from the church that I pastor.

我沒有去買更大的房子。

Third thing is, I added up all that the church had paid me

我也沒買下旅館。

over the last 25 years, and I gave it back.

我還是開著同一台車齡四年的福特車。

And I gave it back because I didn't want anybody thinking

我們就是不要把這些錢用在自己身上。

that I do what I do for money -- I don't.

第二點，

In fact, personally, I've never met

我不再從我牧養的教會支取薪資。

a priest or a pastor or a minister who does it for money.

第三點，我算出過去 25 年教會付給我的薪資總額，

I know that's the stereotype; I've never met one of them.

然後還給教會。

Believe me, there's a whole lot easier ways to make money.

我還給教會，是因為我不希望有人認為

Pastors are like on 24 hours-a-day call, they're like doctors.

我做這些事是為了錢 － 我不是。

I left late today -- I'd hoped to be here yesterday --

說真的，我個人從來沒有見過

because my father-in-law is in his last, probably, 48 hours

教士或牧師為了錢而做這份工作。

before he dies of cancer.

我知道有這種刻板印象存在。我一個也沒遇過。

And I'm watching a guy who's lived his life --

相信我，有太多更容易賺錢的方法了。

he's now in his mid-80s -- and he's dying with peace.

牧師要 24 小時待命，就像醫生一樣。

You know, the test of your worldview is not how you act in the good times.

我今天來得晚了，我原先希望昨天就來的，

The test of your worldview is how you act at the funeral.

因為現在可能是我岳父生命的最後 48 小時，

And having been through literally hundreds if not thousands of funerals,

他隨時可能死於癌症。

it makes a difference.

我看著這個人過完自己的一生 －

It makes a difference what you believe.

他現在八十幾歲 －

So, we gave it all back,

面對死亡，心裡平和。你知道嗎，要考驗你的世界觀，

and then we set up three foundations,

不是看你在順境中如何應對。

working on some of the major problems of the world:

要考驗你的世界觀，要看你在喪禮時的應對。

illiteracy, poverty, pandemic diseases -- particularly HIV/AIDS --

在參加過幾百場，甚至上千場喪禮之後，

and set up these three foundations, and put the money into that.

我知道這真的有差別。

The last thing we did is we became what I call "reverse tithers."

你相信什麼，會產生分別的。

And that is, when my wife and I got married 30 years ago,

所以，我們把薪資還給教會，

we started tithing.

然後成立了三個基金會，

Now, that's a principle in the Bible

針對世界上的一些重大問題：

that says give 10 percent of what you get back to charity,

文盲、貧窮、流行疫症 － 尤其是 HIV/AIDS --

give it away to help other people.

成立了三個基金會，

So, we started doing that, and each year we would raise our tithe one percent.

把錢用在這裡。

So, our first year of marriage we went to 11 percent,

最後一點，我們開始「逆向什一奉獻」。

second year we went to 12 percent,

我太太和我剛結婚的時候，

and the third year we went to 13 percent,

那是 30 年前，

and on and on and on.

我們開始什一奉獻。

Why did I do that?

這是聖經裡教導的一項原則，

Because every time I give,

將所得的十分之一捐出來，

it breaks the grip of materialism in my life.

幫助其他人。

Materialism is all about getting -- get, get, get, get all you can,

我們開始這樣做，而且每一年增加百分之一。

can all you get, sit on the can and spoil the rest.

所以我們結婚一年後，開始奉獻 11%,

It's all about more, having more.

結婚兩年後，奉獻 12%,

And we think that the good life is actually looking good --

結婚三年後，奉獻 13%,

that's most important of all --

以此類推。為什麼我要這麼做呢？

looking good, feeling good and having the goods.

因為每一次我奉獻，

But that's not the good life.

我就能掙脫物質對我生活的綑綁。

I meet people all the time who have those, and they're not necessarily happy.

物質主義就是要得到東西 － 要、要、要，越多越好，

If money actually made you happy,

越要越多，貪得無厭。

then the wealthiest people in the world would be the happiest.

唯一的目標就是要擁有更多。

And that I know, personally, I know, is not true.

我們認為好的生活是，看上去很體面。

It's just not true.

這是最重要的 － 看起來體面，

So, the good life is not about looking good, feeling good or having the goods,

感覺很好，擁有物質的滿足。

it's about being good and doing good.

但這並不是好的生活。

Giving your life away.

我常見到擁有全部這些的人，

Significance in life doesn't come from status,

但他們不見得快樂。

because you can always find somebody who's got more than you.

如果金錢能使人快樂，

It doesn't come from sex.

那麼世界上最有錢的人應該是最快樂的人。

It doesn't come from salary.

而我知道，親身見證，並不真是這樣。

It comes from serving.

並不是這樣。

It is in giving our lives away that we find meaning,

所以，好的生活並不是看起來體面、感覺很好、物質上滿足，

we find significance.

而是做好人、做好事。

That's the way we were wired, I believe, by God.

奉獻你的人生。

And so we began to give away,

人生的價值並不是來自地位，

and now after 30 years,

因為總是有其他人的地位高過你。

my wife and I are reverse tithers -- we give away 90 percent and live on 10.

也不是來自性愛、

That, actually, was the easy part.

不是來自薪資。

The hard part is, what do I do with all this attention?

是來自於服務。

Because I started getting all kinds of invitations.

只有在奉獻人生時，我們才能發現它的意義，

I just came off a nearly month-long speaking tour

找到人生的價值。

on three different continents,

我們生來就是這樣，我相信是神這樣設計的。

and I won't go into that,

我太太和我開始奉獻，

but it was an amazing thing.

到現在過了 30 年後，

And I'm going, what do I do with this notoriety

我們開始逆向什一奉獻，奉獻 90%, 靠 10% 過活。

that the book has brought?

這是簡單的部份。

And, being a pastor, I started reading the Bible.

困難的是，我該拿這些矚目的目光怎麼辦？

There's a chapter in the Bible called Psalm 72,

因為我開始接到各式各樣的邀請。

and it's Solomon's prayer for more influence.

我剛結束長達一個月的巡迴演講，

When you read this prayer,

行程涵蓋三大洲，

it sounds incredibly selfish, self-centered.

我不打算談細節，

He says, "God, I want you to make me famous."

但它的確是很不可思議的事情。

That's what he prays.

所以我在想，我該怎麼樣

He said, "I want you to make me famous.

應付這本書帶來的知名度？