Placeholder Image

字幕列表 影片播放

已審核 字幕已審核
  • I'm often asked,

    常常有人問我,

  • "What surprised you about the book?"

    這本書最讓你驚訝的地方是什麼?

  • And I say, "That I got to write it."

    我回答,我能夠來寫這本書。

  • I would have never imagined that.

    我從沒想過,

  • Not in my wildest dreams did I think --

    再瘋狂的夢裡也沒有 -

  • I don't even consider myself to be an author.

    我從沒想過當個作家。

  • And I'm often asked,

    也常有人問我,

  • "Why do you think so many people have read this?

    你覺得為何有這麼多人讀這本書?

  • This thing's selling still about a million copies a month."

    到現在每個月還有大約一百萬本的銷量。

  • And I think it's because spiritual emptiness

    我認為這是由於心靈的空虛,

  • is a universal disease.

    已經成為普遍的通病。

  • I think inside at some point, we put our heads down on the pillow and we go,

    我想每個人都曾經把頭埋在枕頭裡,說:

  • "There's got to be more to life than this."

    「人生一定不只是這樣。」

  • Get up in the morning, go to work, come home and watch TV,

    早上起床,去上班,回家,看電視,

  • go to bed, get up in the morning, go to work, come home, watch TV, go to bed,

    上床睡覺,早上起床,去上班,回家,看電視,上床睡覺,

  • go to parties on weekends.

    週末去參加派對。

  • A lot of people say, "I'm living." No, you're not living -- that's just existing.

    很多人說:「我在過生活。」不,你不是在過生活 - 你只是活著。

  • Just existing.

    只是活著。

  • I really think that there's this inner desire.

    我真的認為有一種內在的渴求。

  • I do believe what Chris said; I believe that you're not an accident.

    我相信 Chris 剛才說的,我相信你的存在不是偶然的。

  • Your parents may not have planned you, but I believe God did.

    你的父母可能沒有計劃要生你,但是我相信神有。

  • I think there are accidental parents; there's no doubt about that.

    有的人是意外成為父母的,這是事實。

  • I don't think there are accidental kids.

    我不認為有「意外的小孩」。

  • And I think you matter.

    我認為你很重要。

  • I think you matter to God; I think you matter to history;

    我認為你對神很重要,我認為你對歷史很重要,

  • I think you matter to this universe.

    我認為你對這個宇宙很重要。

  • And I think that the difference

    我認為這些生活層次的差異:

  • between what I call the survival level of living, the success level of living,

    生存的層次、成功的層次、

  • and the significance level of living is:

    價值的層次,差異在於

  • Do you figure out, "What on Earth am I here for?"

    你知不知道你來到世上到底是為了什麼?

  • I meet a lot of people who are very smart,

    我見到過很多非常聰明的人,

  • and say, "But why can't I figure out my problems?"

    他們問:「可是為什麼我沒辦法解決自己的問題?」

  • And I meet a lot of people who are very successful,

    我也見過很多非常成功的人,

  • who say, "Why don't I feel more fulfilled?

    他們問:「為什麼我感覺不充實?

  • Why do I feel like a fake?

    為什麼我覺得自己很虛偽?

  • Why do I feel like I've got to pretend that I'm more than I really am?"

    為什麼我感覺

  • I think that comes down to this issue of meaning, of significance, of purpose.

    我必須假裝得比真正的自己更了不起?」

  • I think it comes down to this issue of:

    我認為這些最終都回歸到人生的意義、價值,人生的目的。

  • "Why am I here? What am I here for? Where am I going?"

    我認為這要回歸到

  • These are not religious issues.

    「我為什麼在這裡?我在這裡做什麼?我要往哪裡去?」

  • They're human issues.

    這些不是宗教問題 -

  • I wanted to tell Michael before he spoke that I really appreciate what he does,

    這些是人的問題。

  • because it makes my life work a whole lot easier.

    我想對 Michael 說,

  • As a pastor, I do see a lot of kooks.

    我很感謝他剛才所說的,

  • And I have learned that there are kooks in every area of life.

    因為這讓我的工作容易多了。

  • Religion doesn't have a monopoly on that,

    身為牧師,我會遇到很多怪人。

  • but there are plenty of religious kooks.

    我發現在生活中的任何領域,都可能出現怪人。

  • There are secular kooks; there are smart kooks, dumb kooks.

    宗教在這一方面

  • There are people -- a lady came up to me the other day,

    沒有獨大的特權,但是的確有不少宗教怪人。

  • and she had a white piece of paper -- Michael, you'll like this one --

    也有非宗教的怪人、聰明的怪人、愚蠢的怪人。

  • and she said, "What do you see in it?"

    有天一位女士來找我,

  • And I looked at it and I said, "Oh, I don't see anything."

    拿著一張白紙 - Michael, 你一定會喜歡這個故事 -

  • And she goes, "Well, I see Jesus," and started crying and left.

    她問:「你看到了什麼?」

  • I'm going, "OK," you know? "Fine."

    我看著那張白紙,說:「什麼也沒看到。」

  • (Laughter)

    她說:「我看到耶穌。」然後哭著走了。

  • Good for you.

    我說,ok, 很好。

  • When the book became the best-selling book in the world for the last three years,

    嗯,

  • I kind of had my little crisis.

    很好。

  • And that was: What is the purpose of this?

    過去這三年,這本書成為全球暢銷書,

  • Because it brought in enormous amounts of money.

    我也面臨到自己的小危機。

  • When you write the best-selling book in the world,

    那就是,這件事的目的是什麼?

  • it's tons and tons of money.

    因為它帶來了龐大的金錢。

  • And it brought in a lot of attention, neither of which I wanted.

    當你寫出全世界最暢銷的書,

  • When I started Saddleback Church, I was 25 years old.

    你會得到非常非常多的錢。

  • I started it with one other family in 1980.

    還有很多的矚目,而這兩樣我都不想要。

  • And I decided that I was never going to go on TV,

    我 25 歲成立 Saddleback 教會,

  • because I didn't want to be a celebrity.

    我和另外一家人在 1980 年共同成立教會。

  • I didn't want to be a, quote, "evangelist, televangelist" --

    我當時就決定我永遠不要上電視,

  • that's not my thing.

    因為我不想成為名人,

  • And all of the sudden, it brought a lot of money and a lot of attention.

    我不想成為所謂的「福音派」、「電視福音派」-

  • I don't think --

    那不是我會做的事。

  • now, this is a worldview,

    突然之間,這本書帶來很多的金錢和矚目。

  • and I will tell you, everybody's got a worldview.

    我不認為 -

  • Everybody's betting their life on something.

    這是我的世界觀,我可以告訴你,每個人都有自己的世界觀。

  • You're betting your life on something,

    每個人都將自己的人生押注在某件事物上。

  • you just better know why you're betting what you're betting on.

    你也將你自己的人生押注在某件事物上 -

  • So, everybody's betting their life on something.

    你最好弄清楚自己為什麼押注在你所押注的這件事物上。

  • And when I, you know, made a bet,

    每個人都將自己的人生押注在某件事物上,

  • I happened to believe that Jesus was who he said he was.

    而我下注的時候,我就是相信

  • And I believe in a pluralistic society,

    耶穌就是他自己所稱的那個人。

  • everybody's betting on something.

    不過每個人都有 - 我相信在多元化的社會裡 -

  • And when I started the church,

    每個人都押注在某件事物上。

  • you know, I had no plans to do what it's doing now.

    我成立教會的時候,

  • And then when I wrote this book,

    我並沒有計劃要做教會現在做的這些事情。

  • and all of a sudden, it just took off,

    當我寫完這本書,

  • and I started saying, now, what's the purpose of this?

    突然之間

  • Because as I started to say,

    大受歡迎,

  • I don't think you're given money or fame

    我開始問,這件事的目的是什麼?

  • for your own ego, ever.

    因為我從來不認為,

  • I just don't believe that.

    你能得到金錢或名氣,

  • And when you write a book that the first sentence of the book is,

    目的是滿足你的自我意識。

  • "It's not about you,"

    我就是不相信。

  • then, when all of a sudden it becomes the best-selling book in history,

    當你寫了一本書,書裡的第一句話是:

  • you've got to figure, well, I guess it's not about me.

    「生命的重心不是在你」,

  • That's kind of a no-brainer.

    然後,突然之間

  • So, what is it for?

    這本書成為史上最暢銷的書籍,

  • And I began to think about what I call the "stewardship of affluence"

    你應該要明白,這件事的重點不是在於你。

  • and the "stewardship of influence."

    不用動腦筋也該想到。

  • So I believe, essentially, leadership is stewardship.

    所以,究竟是為了什麼?

  • That if you are a leader in any area --

    我開始思考「財富的代管人」,

  • in business, in politics, in sports, in art,

    以及「影響力的代管人」。

  • in academics, in any area --

    我相信身為領導者,是要作代管人。

  • you don't own it.

    如果你在任何領域居領導地位 -

  • You are a steward of it.

    在商界、政壇、體育、藝術、

  • For instance, that's why I believe in protecting the environment.

    學術界,任何領域 -

  • This is not my planet.

    你並不是所有者,

  • It wasn't mine before I was born, it's not going to be mine after I die,

    而是代管人。

  • I'm just here for 80 years and then that's it.

    舉例來說,這就是我為什麼相信環保。

  • I was debating the other day on a talk show,

    這個地球不是屬於我的。在我出生之前它不是我的,

  • and the guy was challenging me and he'd go,

    在我死後它也不會是我的。

  • "What's a pastor doing on protecting the environment?"

    我在這裡只會待上 80 年,僅此而已。

  • And I asked this guy, I said, "Well, do you believe

    有天我上談話節目進行辯論,

  • that human beings are responsible

    挑戰我論點的人說:

  • to make the world a little bit better place for the next generation?

    「牧師跟環境保護有什麼關係?」

  • Do you think we have a stewardship here, to take the environment seriously?"

    我問他:「你相不相信

  • And he said, "No."

    人類有責任

  • I said, "Oh, you don't?"

    為了下一代使這個世界變得更好?

  • I said, "Let me make this clear again:

    你認為我們是不是應該負起代管人的責任,

  • Do you believe that as human beings -- I'm not talking about religion --

    認真看待環境議題?」

  • do you believe that as human beings, it is our responsibility

    他回答:「不。」

  • to take care of this planet,

    我說:「你不這樣認為?讓我再問一次。

  • and make it just a little bit better for the next generation?"

    你相不相信身為人類 - 我不是在談論宗教 -

  • And he said, "No. Not any more than any other species."

    你相不相信身為人類,我們有責任

  • When he said the word "species," he was revealing his worldview.

    為了下一代來照顧地球,使它變得稍微好一點?」

  • And he was saying,

    他說:「不。

  • "I'm no more responsible to take care of this environment than a duck is."

    我們的責任不比其它物種的大。」

  • Well now, I know a lot of times we act like ducks,

    當他說出「物種」,就顯露了他的世界觀。

  • but you're not a duck.

    他說:「我對環境保護的責任,

  • You're not a duck.

    並不比一隻鴨子該負的責任大。」

  • And you are responsible -- that's my worldview.

    有時候我們的行為的確很像鴨子,

  • And so, you need to understand what your worldview is.

    但你並不是鴨子。

  • The problem is most people never really think it through.

    你不是一隻鴨子。

  • They never really ...

    而且你有責任 - 這是我的世界觀。

  • codify it or qualify it or quantify it,

    所以,你需要了解你的世界觀是什麼。

  • and say, "This is what I believe in. This is why I believe what I believe."

    問題是,大多數的人從來沒有把自己的世界觀想清楚。

  • I don't personally have enough faith to be an atheist.

    他們從來沒有真正地把它

  • But you may, you may.

    條理化,或定義它,或量化它,

  • Your worldview, though, does determine everything else in your life,

    然後說:「這就是我所相信的。

  • because it determines your decisions;

    這就是我為什麼相信我所相信的。」

  • it determines your relationships;

    對我個人來說,我沒有足夠的信心成為無神論者。

  • it determines your level of confidence.

    但是你可能有。

  • It determines, really, everything in your life.

    然而,你的世界觀,將會影響你生命中的所有一切,

  • What we believe, obviously --

    因為它將影響你的決定,

  • and you know this -- determines our behavior,

    影響你的人際關係,

  • and our behavior determines what we become in life.

    影響你的自信心。

  • So all of this money started pouring in,

    它真的會影響你生命中的所有事。

  • and all of this fame started pouring in.

    我們所相信的,顯然 -

  • And I'm going, what do I do with this?

    你也很清楚 - 影響我們的行為,

  • My wife and I first made five decisions on what to do with the money.

    而我們的行為將決定我們生命的樣貌。

  • We said, "First, we're not going to use it on ourselves."

    所以當這些錢開始湧進來,

  • I didn't go out and buy a bigger house.

    名聲開始湧進來,

  • I don't own a guesthouse.

    我想,我要拿它怎麼辦?

  • I still drive the same four year-old Ford that I've driven.

    我太太和我為這些錢的用途做了 5 個決定。

  • We just said, we're not going to use it on us.

    我們決定,第一點,

  • The second thing was,

    我們不會把這些錢用在我們自己身上。

  • I stopped taking a salary from the church that I pastor.

    我沒有去買更大的房子。

  • Third thing is, I added up all that the church had paid me

    我也沒買下旅館。

  • over the last 25 years, and I gave it back.

    我還是開著同一台車齡四年的福特車。

  • And I gave it back because I didn't want anybody thinking

    我們就是不要把這些錢用在自己身上。

  • that I do what I do for money -- I don't.

    第二點,

  • In fact, personally, I've never met

    我不再從我牧養的教會支取薪資。

  • a priest or a pastor or a minister who does it for money.

    第三點,我算出過去 25 年教會付給我的薪資總額,

  • I know that's the stereotype; I've never met one of them.

    然後還給教會。

  • Believe me, there's a whole lot easier ways to make money.

    我還給教會,是因為我不希望有人認為

  • Pastors are like on 24 hours-a-day call, they're like doctors.

    我做這些事是為了錢 - 我不是。

  • I left late today -- I'd hoped to be here yesterday --

    說真的,我個人從來沒有見過

  • because my father-in-law is in his last, probably, 48 hours

    教士或牧師為了錢而做這份工作。

  • before he dies of cancer.

    我知道有這種刻板印象存在。我一個也沒遇過。

  • And I'm watching a guy who's lived his life --

    相信我,有太多更容易賺錢的方法了。

  • he's now in his mid-80s -- and he's dying with peace.

    牧師要 24 小時待命,就像醫生一樣。

  • You know, the test of your worldview is not how you act in the good times.

    我今天來得晚了,我原先希望昨天就來的,

  • The test of your worldview is how you act at the funeral.

    因為現在可能是我岳父生命的最後 48 小時,

  • And having been through literally hundreds if not thousands of funerals,

    他隨時可能死於癌症。

  • it makes a difference.

    我看著這個人過完自己的一生 -

  • It makes a difference what you believe.

    他現在八十幾歲 -

  • So, we gave it all back,

    面對死亡,心裡平和。你知道嗎,要考驗你的世界觀,

  • and then we set up three foundations,

    不是看你在順境中如何應對。

  • working on some of the major problems of the world:

    要考驗你的世界觀,要看你在喪禮時的應對。

  • illiteracy, poverty, pandemic diseases -- particularly HIV/AIDS --

    在參加過幾百場,甚至上千場喪禮之後,

  • and set up these three foundations, and put the money into that.

    我知道這真的有差別。

  • The last thing we did is we became what I call "reverse tithers."

    你相信什麼,會產生分別的。

  • And that is, when my wife and I got married 30 years ago,

    所以,我們把薪資還給教會,

  • we started tithing.

    然後成立了三個基金會,

  • Now, that's a principle in the Bible

    針對世界上的一些重大問題:

  • that says give 10 percent of what you get back to charity,

    文盲、貧窮、流行疫症 - 尤其是 HIV/AIDS --

  • give it away to help other people.

    成立了三個基金會,

  • So, we started doing that, and each year we would raise our tithe one percent.

    把錢用在這裡。

  • So, our first year of marriage we went to 11 percent,

    最後一點,我們開始「逆向什一奉獻」。

  • second year we went to 12 percent,

    我太太和我剛結婚的時候,

  • and the third year we went to 13 percent,

    那是 30 年前,

  • and on and on and on.

    我們開始什一奉獻。

  • Why did I do that?

    這是聖經裡教導的一項原則,

  • Because every time I give,

    將所得的十分之一捐出來,

  • it breaks the grip of materialism in my life.

    幫助其他人。

  • Materialism is all about getting -- get, get, get, get all you can,

    我們開始這樣做,而且每一年增加百分之一。

  • can all you get, sit on the can and spoil the rest.

    所以我們結婚一年後,開始奉獻 11%,

  • It's all about more, having more.

    結婚兩年後,奉獻 12%,

  • And we think that the good life is actually looking good --

    結婚三年後,奉獻 13%,

  • that's most important of all --

    以此類推。為什麼我要這麼做呢?

  • looking good, feeling good and having the goods.

    因為每一次我奉獻,

  • But that's not the good life.

    我就能掙脫物質對我生活的綑綁。

  • I meet people all the time who have those, and they're not necessarily happy.

    物質主義就是要得到東西 - 要、要、要,越多越好,

  • If money actually made you happy,

    越要越多,貪得無厭。

  • then the wealthiest people in the world would be the happiest.

    唯一的目標就是要擁有更多。

  • And that I know, personally, I know, is not true.

    我們認為好的生活是,看上去很體面。

  • It's just not true.

    這是最重要的 - 看起來體面,

  • So, the good life is not about looking good, feeling good or having the goods,

    感覺很好,擁有物質的滿足。

  • it's about being good and doing good.

    但這並不是好的生活。

  • Giving your life away.

    我常見到擁有全部這些的人,

  • Significance in life doesn't come from status,

    但他們不見得快樂。

  • because you can always find somebody who's got more than you.

    如果金錢能使人快樂,

  • It doesn't come from sex.

    那麼世界上最有錢的人應該是最快樂的人。

  • It doesn't come from salary.

    而我知道,親身見證,並不真是這樣。

  • It comes from serving.

    並不是這樣。

  • It is in giving our lives away that we find meaning,

    所以,好的生活並不是看起來體面、感覺很好、物質上滿足,

  • we find significance.

    而是做好人、做好事。

  • That's the way we were wired, I believe, by God.

    奉獻你的人生。

  • And so we began to give away,

    人生的價值並不是來自地位,

  • and now after 30 years,

    因為總是有其他人的地位高過你。

  • my wife and I are reverse tithers -- we give away 90 percent and live on 10.

    也不是來自性愛、

  • That, actually, was the easy part.

    不是來自薪資。

  • The hard part is, what do I do with all this attention?

    是來自於服務。

  • Because I started getting all kinds of invitations.

    只有在奉獻人生時,我們才能發現它的意義,

  • I just came off a nearly month-long speaking tour

    找到人生的價值。

  • on three different continents,

    我們生來就是這樣,我相信是神這樣設計的。

  • and I won't go into that,

    我太太和我開始奉獻,

  • but it was an amazing thing.

    到現在過了 30 年後,

  • And I'm going, what do I do with this notoriety

    我們開始逆向什一奉獻,奉獻 90%, 靠 10% 過活。

  • that the book has brought?

    這是簡單的部份。

  • And, being a pastor, I started reading the Bible.

    困難的是,我該拿這些矚目的目光怎麼辦?

  • There's a chapter in the Bible called Psalm 72,

    因為我開始接到各式各樣的邀請。

  • and it's Solomon's prayer for more influence.

    我剛結束長達一個月的巡迴演講,

  • When you read this prayer,

    行程涵蓋三大洲,

  • it sounds incredibly selfish, self-centered.

    我不打算談細節,

  • He says, "God, I want you to make me famous."

    但它的確是很不可思議的事情。

  • That's what he prays.

    所以我在想,我該怎麼樣

  • He said, "I want you to make me famous.

    應付這本書帶來的知名度?