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  • People say things about religion all the time.

    人們常常討論宗教。

  • (Laughter)

    (觀衆笑聲)

  • The late, great Christopher Hitchens

    已逝的著名作家克里斯托弗·希欽斯

  • wrote a book called "God Is Not Great"

    寫了一本書叫做《上帝不偉大》,

  • whose subtitle was, "Religion Poisons Everything."

    副標題叫做“宗教毒害一切”。

  • (Laughter)

    (觀眾笑聲)

  • But last month, in Time magazine,

    但是上個月,時代雜誌刊登了

  • Rabbi David Wolpe, who I gather is referred to as America's rabbi,

    拉比大衛·沃普的一段話, 他被公認為美國的拉比(智者),

  • said, to balance that against that negative characterization,

    反駁這些對宗教的負面描述,

  • that no important form of social change

    他說:任何形式的社會改革

  • can be brought about except through organized religion.

    都只能通過有組織的宗教活動進行。

  • Now, remarks of this sort on the negative

    這些關於宗教正面與負面的評價

  • and the positive side are very old.

    都是老生常談了。

  • I have one in my pocket here

    我口袋裡就有一句話是

  • from the first century BCE by Lucretius,

    公元一世紀的盧克萊斯說的,

  • the author of "On the Nature of Things," who said,

    他是《物性論》的作者,他這樣說道,

  • "Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum" --

    “Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum”(拉丁文),

  • I should have been able to learn that by heart

    我應該把這句話背下來。

  • which is, that's how much religion

    這句話的意思就是,宗教

  • is able to persuade people to do evil,

    就是這樣慫恿人們向惡。

  • and he was talking about the fact

    他講訴了

  • of Agamemnon's decision to place his daughter

    阿伽蒙農爲了軍隊無往不勝

  • Iphigenia on an altar of sacrifice

    而要把他自己的女兒依菲琴妮婭

  • in order to preserve the prospects of his army.

    送上祭壇作爲犧牲的事實。

  • So there have been these long debates

    所以這些關於宗教的辯論

  • over the centuries, in that case, actually,

    已經持續了幾個世紀,而按這個例子來看,

  • we can say over the millennia, about religion.

    我們可以說關於宗教的爭論 已經持續了幾千年。

  • People have talked about it a lot,

    人們經常討論這個話題,

  • and they've said good and bad

    他們表達了很多關於宗教的好的壞的

  • and indifferent things about it.

    和無所謂的觀點。

  • What I want to persuade you of today

    我今天想跟大家說的,

  • is of a very simple claim,

    是一個簡單的觀點。

  • which is that these debates are

    那就是,這些爭論

  • in a certain sense preposterous,

    從某種意義上來說都是荒謬可笑的,

  • because there is no such thing as religion

    那是因爲這個世界上 根本就沒有宗教這個東西,

  • about which to make these claims.

    所以這些爭論純是無稽之談。

  • There isn't a thing called religion,

    既然沒有宗教這個東西

  • and so it can't be good or bad.

    也就沒有好於壞之分,

  • It can't even be indifferent.

    甚至都不可能對其無所謂。

  • And if you think about claims

    如果你想想這些關於

  • about the nonexistence of things,

    事物的不存在性的觀點,

  • one obvious way to try and establish

    有一個顯而易見的

  • the nonexistence of a purported thing

    來確定這些想像的事物的 不存在性的方法

  • would be to offer a definition of that thing

    就是先提出一个定義,

  • and then to see whether anything satisfied it.

    然後看看哪些事物符合這個定義。

  • I'm going to start out on that little route

    現在我準備就開始

  • to begin with.

    以這一點開始討論。

  • So if you look in the dictionaries

    如果你去查字典,

  • and if you think about it,

    如果你想想這些事情,

  • one very natural definition of religion

    一個對宗教的非常自然的解釋就是

  • is that it involves belief in gods or in spiritual beings.

    宗教是對神靈和有神性事物的信仰。

  • As I say, this is in many dictionaries,

    我是說,這是在很多字典裏面的解釋,

  • but you'll also find it actually

    但是你也會發現其實在

  • in the work of Sir Edward Tylor,

    牛津大學第一位人類學教授,

  • who was the first professor of anthropology at Oxford,

    現代人類學先鋒之一,

  • one of the first modern anthropologists.

    爵士愛德華泰勒的著作中就提到過。

  • In his book on primitive culture,

    在他的有關原始文化的書裡面,

  • he says the heart of religion is what he called animism,

    他提到,宗教的核心就是萬物有靈,

  • that is, the belief in spiritual agency,

    也就是相信神體,

  • belief in spirits.

    信仰靈性。

  • The first problem for that definition

    這個定義的第一個挑戰

  • is from a recent novel by Paul Beatty called "Tuff."

    來自最近保羅貝·蒂的一本小說《塔夫》。

  • There's a guy talking to a rabbi.

    他寫到一個人向拉比求教,

  • The rabbi says he doesn't believe in God.

    拉比說他自己不相信上帝。

  • The guy says, "You're a rabbi, how can you not believe in God?"

    那人就說“你可是拉比啊,你怎麼能不相信上帝?”

  • And the reply is, "It's what's so great about being Jewish.

    回答是“這就是做猶太人的好處。”

  • You don't have to believe in a God per se,

    你不需要去相信上帝本身,

  • just in being Jewish." (Laughter)

    只要相信自己是猶太人。“(笑聲)

  • So if this guy is a rabbi, and a Jewish rabbi,

    所以如果這個人是拉比,並且是猶太拉比,

  • and if you have to believe in God in order to be religious,

    而如果只有信仰上帝才算信教,

  • then we have the rather counterintuitive conclusion

    那麼我們會得到一個有悖常理的結論,

  • that since it's possible to be a Jewish rabbi

    那就是你不可能成爲一位不信仰上帝的

  • without believing in God,

    猶太拉比,

  • Judaism isn't a religion.

    猶太教不是一個宗教。

  • That seems like a pretty counterintuitive thought.

    這個結論似乎有悖常理。

  • Here's another argument against this view.

    這裡還有另外一個反駁這個定義的觀點。

  • A friend of mine, an Indian friend of mine,

    我有一個印度的朋友,

  • went to his grandfather when he was very young,

    他年輕的時候去他祖父家,

  • a child, and said to him,

    還是個小孩,他跟祖父說,

  • "I want to talk to you about religion,"

    “我想跟你談談宗教。”

  • and his grandfather said, "You're too young.

    祖父回答他說:“你還太小。

  • Come back when you're a teenager."

    等你長大成少年了再來找我。“

  • So he came back when he was a teenager,

    所以他長大成少年後又去找他祖父,

  • and he said to his grandfather,

    他跟祖父說:

  • "It may be a bit late now

    “現在可能有點晚了,

  • because I've discovered that I don't believe in the gods."

    因爲我發現自己根本不相信有神靈。“

  • And his grandfather, who was a wise man, said,

    他的祖父是一個很有智慧的人,他說道:

  • "Oh, so you belong to the atheist branch

    “哦,所以你是屬於印度教

  • of the Hindu tradition." (Laughter)

    無神論派的嘍。”(笑聲)

  • And finally, there's this guy,

    最後,這人

  • who famously doesn't believe in God.

    成了世界有名的不相信神的人。

  • His name is the Dalai Lama.

    他的名字是達賴喇嘛。

  • He often jokes that he's one of the world's leading atheists.

    他經常開玩笑的說自己是世界上 領先的無神論者。

  • But it's true, because the Dalai Lama's religion

    但是這是真的,因爲達賴喇嘛的宗教信仰

  • does not involve belief in God.

    並不包括信仰神。

  • Now you might think this just shows

    現在你可能認爲這只能說明

  • that I've given you the wrong definition

    我提出了一個錯誤的定義。

  • and that I should come up with some other definition

    那麼我必須得重新定義,

  • and test it against these cases

    然後再檢驗這些例子,

  • and try and find something that captures

    找到一個可以涵蓋

  • atheistic Judaism, atheistic Hinduism,

    無神猶太教,無神印度教

  • and atheistic Buddhism as forms of religiosity,

    和無神佛教的宗教定義,

  • but I actually think that that's a bad idea,

    但是其實我認爲這不是個好主意,

  • and the reason I think it's a bad idea

    我認爲這不是個好主意的理由是

  • is that I don't think that's how

    我不認爲

  • our concept of religion works.

    我們的宗教概念是這樣來的。

  • I think the way our concept of religion works

    我認爲我們的宗教概念是這樣來的,

  • is that we actually have, we have a list

    我們實際上有的是一個

  • of paradigm religions

    宗教範例的列表

  • and their sub-parts, right,

    和其支系的清單,對麼,

  • and if something new comes along

    如果有新的

  • that purports to be a religion,

    聲稱是宗教的事物出現,

  • what we ask is, "Well, is it like one of these?"

    我們只需要問“這個是其中之一麼?”

  • Right?

    對麼?

  • And I think that's not only how we think about religion,

    我認爲我們不止這樣理解宗教,

  • and that's, as it were,

    而且,從某種意義上來說,

  • so from our point of view,

    我們認為

  • anything on that list had better be a religion,

    那個列表上所列的應該都是宗教,

  • which is why I don't think an account of religion

    這就是爲什麼我認爲

  • that excludes Buddhism and Judaism

    無法包含佛教和猶太教的宗教定義

  • has a chance of being a good starter,

    不是一個好的開始,

  • because they're on our list.

    因爲這兩個宗教都在我們的列表上。

  • But why do we have such a list?

    但是我們爲什麼有這樣一個列表呢?

  • What's going on? How did it come about

    到底發生了什麼?

  • that we have this list?

    我們是怎麼想到要這樣一個列表呢?

  • I think the answer is a pretty simple one

    我認爲答案非常簡單,

  • and therefore crude and contentious.

    也因此粗糙和爭議不斷。

  • I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with it,

    我相信很多人都會持反對觀點,

  • but here's my story,

    但是這是我的故事,

  • and true or not, it's a story that I think

    不管是真是假,我認爲

  • gives you a good sense of how

    這個故事告訴我們

  • the list might have come about,

    這個列表是怎樣來的,

  • and therefore helps you to think about

    也因此可以幫助你思考

  • what use the list might be.

    這個列表的作用。

  • I think the answer is, European travelers,

    我認爲答案就是,歐洲的旅行家們,

  • starting roughly about the time of Columbus,

    粗略地從哥倫布開始算起,

  • started going around the world.

    開始環遊世界。

  • They came from a Christian culture,

    他們都是來自基督教文化,

  • and when they arrived in a new place,

    當他們來到一個新地方,

  • they noticed that some people didn't have Christianity,

    他們發現有些人並不信仰基督教,

  • and so they asked themselves the following question:

    所以他們就問自己這個問題:

  • what have they got instead of Christianity?

    沒有基督教,他們有什麼?

  • And that list was essentially constructed.

    由此一個列表就誕生了。

  • It consists of the things that other people had

    這個列表包括了很多

  • instead of Christianity.

    非基督教的信仰。

  • Now there's a difficulty with proceeding in that way,

    到這裡我們就遇到了一個問題,

  • which is that Christianity is extremely,

    基督教,即使在這個列表上面,

  • even on that list, it's an extremely specific tradition.

    有著非常具體的傳統。

  • It has all kinds of things in it

    它包含了各種各樣的

  • that are very, very particular

    非常獨特的東西,

  • that are the results of the specifics

    這些都是由其獨特的基督歷史

  • of Christian history,

    所形成的結果,

  • and one thing that's at the heart of it,

    而居於此核心的是,

  • one thing that's at the heart of most understandings of Christianity,

    大部分對由獨特基督教歷史所形成的

  • which is the result of the specific history of Christianity,

    基督教的理解的核心是,

  • is that it's an extremely creedal religion.

    它是非常教條的宗教。

  • It's a religion in which people are really concerned

    這個宗教非常注重

  • about whether you believe the right things.

    你是否信仰正確的事物。

  • The history of Christianity, the internal history of Christianity,

    基督教的歷史,它內部的歷史,

  • is largely the history of people killing each other

    大部分是人們互相殘殺的歷史,

  • because they believed the wrong thing,

    因爲他們信仰了錯誤的事物,

  • and it's also involved in

    這歷史還包括了

  • struggles with other religions,

    與其他宗教的爭鬥,

  • obviously starting in the Middle Ages,

    當然是由中世紀開始,

  • a struggle with Islam,

    和伊斯蘭的衝突,

  • in which, again, it was the infidelity,

    就是因爲無神論,

  • the fact that they didn't believe the right things,

    因爲他們不信仰正確的事物,

  • that seemed so offensive to the Christian world.

    讓基督教世界感到備受侮辱。

  • Now that's a very specific and particular history

    這是基督教歷史

  • that Christianity has,

    非常獨特的地方,

  • and not everywhere is everything

    不是所有被放在這個清單上的東西

  • that has ever been put on this sort of list like it.

    都是這樣的。

  • Here's another problem, I think.

    我認爲,還有一個問題,

  • A very specific thing happened.

    一件非常特殊的事情發生了。

  • It was actually adverted to earlier,

    其實我們前面有提到過,

  • but a very specific thing happened

    我們現在大部分美國人

  • in the history of the kind of Christianity

    所熟知的基督教歷史上

  • that we see around us

    發生了

  • mostly in the United States today,

    一件非常重要的事情,

  • and it happened in the late 19th century,

    這件事情發生在十九世紀後期。

  • and that specific thing that happened

    這件發生在十九世紀後期的

  • in the late 19th century

    特殊的事情

  • was a kind of deal that was cut

    在科學與宗教之間

  • between science,

    樹立了界限,

  • this new way of organizing intellectual authority,

    科學成為了新的

  • and religion.

    組織知識的權威。

  • If you think about the 18th century, say,

    你設想一下十八世紀,

  • if you think about intellectual life

    你設想一下

  • before the late 19th century,

    十九世紀以前的知識界,

  • anything you did, anything you thought about,

    你做的任何事,想的任何事,

  • whether it was the physical world,

    不管是物質世界,

  • the human world,

    人類世界,

  • the natural world apart from the human world,

    還是與人類相對的自然世界,

  • or morality, anything you did

    或是道德,你做的任何事

  • would have been framed against the background

    都會被放在

  • of a set of assumptions that were religious,

    宗教信仰、基督教信仰的

  • Christian assumptions.

    背景下去考慮。

  • You couldn't give an account

    你會發現

  • of the natural world

    任何一個對自然世界的描述

  • that didn't say something about its relationship,

    都涉及到自然世界與宗教世界的關聯,

  • for example, to the creation story

    比如,亚伯拉罕故事中的

  • in the Abrahamic tradition,

    創世論,

  • the creation story in the first book of the Torah.

    第一本猶太宗教律法《托拉》中的創世論。

  • So everything was framed in that way.

    所有的東西都是跟宗教有關的。

  • But this changes in the late 19th century,

    但是十九世紀後期發生了改變,

  • and for the first time, it's possible for people

    這是第一次,人們可以

  • to develop serious intellectual careers

    認真從事科學事業,

  • as natural historians like Darwin.

    就像自然歷史學家達爾文那樣。

  • Darwin worried about the relationship between

    達爾文擔憂他所說的

  • what he said and the truths of religion,

    和宗教真相之間的關係,

  • but he could proceed, he could write books

    但是他能夠繼續,

  • about his subject

    並寫下自己的題材,

  • without having to say what the relationship was

    而不需要提及它們與

  • to the religious claims,

    宗教信仰之間的關係,

  • and similarly, geologists increasingly could talk about it.

    相同地,地質學家也可以 開始逐漸發表言論。

  • In the early 19th century, if you were a geologist

    在十九世紀初期,如果你是一個地質學家

  • and made a claim about the age of the Earth,

    對地球的年紀進行推測,

  • you had to explain whether that was consistent

    你必須解釋這個年紀

  • or how it was or wasn't consistent

    是否與創世紀中提到的

  • with the age of the Earth implied

    地球年紀吻合,

  • by the account in Genesis.

    怎樣吻合或是怎樣不吻合。

  • By the end of the 19th century,

    到了十九世紀末期,

  • you can just write a geology textbook

    你則可以寫一本地質學的教科書,

  • in which you make arguments about how old the Earth is.

    裡面談到你對地球年紀的推測。

  • So there's a big change, and that division,

    所以這是一個很大的改變,這種分離,

  • that intellectual division of labor occurs as I say, I think,

    使得腦力勞動分工得以發生,

  • and it sort of solidifies so that by the end

    在十九世紀末期的歐洲

  • of the 19th century in Europe,

    更加得到了鞏固,

  • there's a real intellectual division of labor,

    產生了真正意義上的腦力勞動分工,

  • and you can do all sorts of serious things,

    你可以做很多嚴肅的事情,

  • including, increasingly, even philosophy,

    包括很多,甚至哲學,

  • without being constrained by the thought,

    思想不再被禁錮,

  • "Well, what I have to say has to be consistent

    “我所說的需要與

  • with the deep truths that are given to me

    宗教教會我的事實

  • by our religious tradition."

    保持一致。”

  • So imagine someone who's coming out

    想像一下一個人走出

  • of that world, that late-19th-century world,

    那個十九世紀末期的世界,

  • coming into the country that I grew up in, Ghana,

    來到我成長的國家,加納,

  • the society that I grew up in, Asante,

    我成長的社會,阿桑特部落,

  • coming into that world

    來到20世紀轉折點的

  • at the turn of the 20th century

    那個世界,

  • with this question that made the list:

    帶著形成那個清單的問題:

  • what have they got instead of Christianity?

    沒有基督教,他們有什麼?

  • Well, here's one thing he would have noticed,

    有個事情他將會注意到,

  • and by the way, there was a person who actually did this.

    順便一提,的確有人注意到了。