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  • (dramatic music)

  • - Part of the job description was,

    - 職務說明的一部分是:

  • "You will be part of a team

    "你將成為一個團隊的一員

  • "that protects free speech online,"

    "保護網上言論自由的"

  • which makes it seem very heroic.

    這讓它看起來非常英雄。

  • It felt like you were putting on a cape working at Google.

    這感覺就像你在谷歌工作時穿上了一件披風。

  • - Over the past year, I've been reporting on the lives

    - 在過去的一年裡,我一直在報道生活中。

  • of Facebook's content moderators in America

    在美國的Facebook內容版主中

  • and they've told me about their low pay,

    他們已經告訴我他們的低工資。

  • their dire working conditions and in some cases,

    其惡劣的工作條件,在某些情況下,。

  • the long term mental health consequences

    長期的精神健康後果

  • of doing the work that they do.

    的做的工作。

  • A content moderator is kind of like

    內容版主有點像

  • a police officer for the internet.

    互聯網的警察。

  • If you ever see something that you think

    如果你看到的東西,你認為

  • doesn't belong on a site and you report it,

    不屬於一個網站,你報告它。

  • that report is gonna be reviewed by a human being.

    該報告是要去審查 由一個人。

  • While a lot of what they see is really benign,

    雖然他們看到的很多東西是真的良性的。

  • like spam, for example, some of it's really disturbing.

    比如說,像垃圾郵件,有些真的很令人不安。

  • I'm talking about murder, terrorism and child exploitation.

    我說的是謀殺,恐怖主義和剝削兒童。

  • Recently, I started seeing out people who did

    最近,我開始看到外面的人誰做

  • this kind of work for Google and YouTube.

    谷歌和YouTube的這種工作。

  • I wanted to see how their experiences compared

    我想看看他們的經驗如何比較

  • to the ones I had heard about already.

    到那些我已經聽說過的。

  • What I did learn surprised me.

    我學到的東西讓我很驚訝。

  • (dramatic music)

  • - Part of doing our job and how they would make

    - 做我們工作的一部分,他們會如何讓。

  • us feel better about it was that,

    我們感覺更好的是,。

  • "You guys see this so other people don't have to see this."

    "你們看到這個,別人就不用看到這個了。"

  • (dramatic music)

  • - Over the course of my reporting,

    - 在我的報道過程中。

  • I talked to both people who worked at Google full time

    我和兩個在谷歌全職工作的人都聊過。

  • and people who had been hired

    和被僱傭的人

  • on through third-party contractors.

    通過第三方承包商進行。

  • It became clear to me that no matter who hired you,

    我很清楚,不管是誰僱傭了你。

  • doing this job over a long enough time period

    久久為功

  • can cause significant mental health consequences.

    會造成嚴重的心理健康後果。

  • But it also became clear to me that there is

    但我也清楚地認識到,有。

  • a big difference in how Google employees get treated

    谷歌員工待遇大不同

  • and how those third-party contractors get treated.

    以及這些第三方承包商的待遇。

  • Today, a former full-time Google employee

    今天,一位前谷歌全職員工

  • named Daisy Soderberg-Rivken is going on the record

    名為Daisy Soderberg-Rivken的人要去記錄

  • to talk about her experiences as a content moderator.

    來談談她作為內容主持人的經驗。

  • She had access to all the perks and all the benefits

    她可以享受所有的待遇和所有的福利。

  • that come with being a full-time Google employee.

    作為谷歌全職員工所帶來的。

  • But at the end of that day, that didn't save her

    但到了最後,這並不能拯救她。

  • from the consequences of doing the job.

    從做工作的後果。

  • - I was a legal root removals associate,

    - 我是一名合法的根除協理。

  • which is a very fancy way of saying I was

    這是一個非常花哨的方式說我是。

  • a content moderator at Google.

    谷歌的一名內容版主。

  • - Let's talk about what the job actually was.

    - 我們來談談這個工作到底是什麼。

  • You show up, you have your orientation,

    你出現了,你有你的定位。

  • you sit down at your computer, it's time to do your job.

    你坐在電腦前,是時候做你的工作了。

  • What is your job?

    你的工作是什麼?

  • - You usually start your work by going through a queue.

    - 你通常通過排隊開始工作。

  • So you're assigned to a queue based on either

    所以,你被分配到一個隊列中,基於以下任一條件

  • an issue area or a geographic area.

    一個問題領域或一個地理區域;

  • I focused on the French market,

    我專注於法國市場。

  • because my first languages were French and English

    因為我的第一語言是法語和英語

  • and I also worked on our child sexual abuse imagery cases

    我也在處理我們的兒童性虐待影像案件。

  • and our terrorism cases.

    和我們的恐怖主義案件。

  • - And you were working primarily on web search, right?

    - 而你的工作主要是網絡搜索,對嗎?

  • - Yes, we as in-house content moderators,

    - 是的,我們作為內部的內容版主。

  • we would usually handle more high level, complex issues.

    我們通常會處理比較高級、複雜的問題。

  • Certain things that were very high volumes,

    某些事情,量非常大。

  • such as defamation and copyright were typically

    誹謗和版權等問題通常都是由政府提供的。

  • sent over to contractors.

    發送給承包商。

  • They would then escalate to us if it was kind

    他們會升級到我們,如果它是一種。

  • of a gray area, but if it was even a gray area for us,

    的灰色地帶,但如果對我們來說,這甚至是一個灰色地帶。

  • we would then escalate to our council.

    然後,我們會升級到我們的理事會。

  • It was kind of levels of how specialized we were.

    我們的專業性有多強,這是一種水準。

  • - At what point did you start to feel like you

    - 在什麼時候你開始覺得自己...

  • were seeing more disturbing stuff than you expected?

    看到的東西比你想象的更令人不安?

  • - Very early on.

    - 很早的時候。

  • They said we would be analyzing child sexual abuse imagery

    他們說,我們將分析兒童性虐待的形象

  • but I remember clearly, in parentheses, it said,

    但我記得很清楚,括號裡寫著。

  • this kind of content would be limited to one

    這種內容只限於一個

  • to two hours per week, when in reality,

    到每週兩小時,而實際上。

  • we were understaffed, so we would be in there

    我們的人手不足,所以我們會在那裡。

  • sometimes five, six hours a week,

    有時一週5,6個小時。

  • which sounds like nothing, but it's actually...

    聽起來沒什麼,但實際上...

  • - Oh, it sounds like a lot. - It's a lot.

    - 哦,這聽起來像一個很多。- 這是一個很大的。

  • - Yeah, yeah.

    - 是啊,是啊。

  • When do you first notice that doing this job

    你什麼時候開始注意到做這份工作

  • was starting to affect your mental health?

    是開始影響你的心理健康?

  • - When I was walking around San Francisco, actually,

    - 當我在舊金山附近散步時,其實。

  • and I was with one of my friends and we saw

    我和我的一個朋友在一起,我們看到了。

  • a group of kids, toddlers,

    一群孩子,幼兒。

  • that were hanging on to one of those ropes

    掛在那些繩索上的那些東西

  • so that they don't go far.

    以免他們走得太遠。

  • I looked at them and then, I kind of blinked once,

    我看著他們,然後,我算是眨了一次眼睛。

  • and suddenly, I just had a flash of images

    突然間,我突然想到了一些畫面

  • of some of the images I had seen, children being tied up,

    的一些影像,我看到,兒童被捆綁起來。

  • children being raped, at that age.

    兒童被強姦,在這個年齡。

  • This is three, three years old.

    這是三,三年前的事。

  • I kind of like stopped and I was kind of blinking a lot

    我有點像停下來,我有點閃爍了很多。

  • and my friend had to make sure I was okay

    而我的朋友必須確保我的安全

  • and I had to sit down for a second

    我不得不坐下來休息一下

  • and I just exploded crying.

    我只是爆發了哭泣。

  • She was like, "What just happened?"

    她說,"剛才發生了什麼?"

  • And I couldn't explain it to her and I just,

    我無法向她解釋,我只是。

  • these racing thoughts and then, an instant panic attack.

    這些紛繁的思緒,然後,瞬間驚慌失措。

  • I was having nightmares, I wasn't sleeping,

    我做了噩夢,我沒有睡覺。

  • I had spent multiple days just crying in the bathroom.

    我已經花了好幾天的時間,就在衛生間裡哭。

  • I was having all of these panic attacks.

    我有所有這些恐慌症。

  • My work productivity just dipped.

    我的工作效率剛剛下降了。

  • Finally, my manager was like,

    最後,我的經理就像。

  • "Listen, we really need you

    "聽著,我們真的需要你

  • "to step up your productivity game."

    "提高你的工作效率"

  • I just snapped and I turned to him and I said,

    我才猛然一驚,我轉身對他說。

  • "Do you understand what we're looking at

    "你明白我們在看什麼嗎?

  • "and we're not machines, we're humans.

    "我們不是機器,我們是人。

  • "So we have emotions and those emotions

    "所以我們有情感,而這些情感

  • "are deeply scarred by looking at children

    "看著孩子們的傷痕累累

  • "being raped all the time and people getting

    "被強姦所有的時間和人們得到的。

  • "their heads chopped off."

    "他們的頭被砍掉了。"

  • It was like there was no escape and yeah,

    這就像沒有逃脫,是的。

  • I finally snapped and they took that as,

    我終於發話了,他們就當。

  • oh, she needs to take a second, she needs to breathe.

    哦,她需要採取第二, 她需要呼吸。

  • And I was said, "No, I need to leave."

    我說,"不,我需要離開。"

  • The free food, the nap pods, all these benefits,

    免費的食物,午睡艙,這些好處。

  • this doesn't mean anything if this is,

    這並不意味著什麼,如果這是。

  • if this is my day-to-day.

    如果這是我的日常。

  • - Daisy helped me understand how hard this job is to

    - 黛西讓我明白了這份工作有多難。

  • do even when you work in the greatest office in the world.

    即使你在世界上最偉大的辦公室工作,你也會這樣做。

  • But the truth is that most people don't work

    但事實上,大多數人都不工作。

  • in an office half that nice.

    在一個有一半好的辦公室裡。

  • One of Google's biggest projects that it has

    谷歌最大的項目之一,它有。

  • to moderate, of course, is YouTube.

    來調節,當然,是YouTube。

  • When it comes to YouTube,

    說到YouTube。

  • Google has decided to give most of the work

    谷歌已經決定將大部分工作交給

  • of content moderation to third-party contractors.

    將內容管理權交給第三方承包商。

  • Recently, I went to Austin, Texas, to meet with a group

    最近,我去德克薩斯州奧斯汀市,與一群

  • of moderators who work for Accenture on the YouTube project.

    在YouTube項目中為埃森哲工作的版主的。

  • Specifically, they work on what is called the VE queue.

    具體來說,它們的工作原理是所謂的VE隊列。

  • VE standing for violent extremism.

    VE代表暴力極端主義。

  • 120 times a day,

    每天120次。

  • they review YouTube videos that have terrorism,

    他們審查YouTube上有恐怖主義的視頻。

  • graphic violence and other disturbing content.

    畫面暴力和其他令人不安的內容。

  • You're about to hear from one of them

    你將會聽到他們中的一個人的聲音。

  • and we've altered the audio to protect their identity.

    為了保護他們的身份,我們改變了音頻。

  • - [Moderator] So, at the beginning,

    - [主持人]所以,在一開始。

  • they told you to watch some videos.

    他們告訴你看一些視頻。

  • You're going to take some actions.

    你要採取一些行動。

  • You will apply the YouTube polices.

    你將應用YouTube的政策。

  • But you don't feel how this is going to impact you.

    但你不覺得這對你有什麼影響。

  • - In some ways, the content moderators who do this work

    - 從某種程度上來說,從事這項工作的內容版主

  • for Google and YouTube are treated better

    谷歌和YouTube的待遇更好

  • than the ones who work for Facebook.

    比那些為Facebook工作的人。

  • Most prominently, they get two hours of break time each day.

    最突出的是,他們每天有兩個小時的休息時間。

  • Basically, two hours of paid leave in which they

    基本上,兩個小時的帶薪休假,其中他們

  • can recover from the challenges of doing this work.

    可以從這項工作的挑戰中恢復過來。

  • But, most of them aren't able

    但是,他們中的大多數人都不能

  • to take a full two hours a day.

    要每天花足兩個小時。

  • - [Moderator] They're forcing you, micromanaging you

    - [主持人]他們強迫你,微觀管理你。

  • to have to be sitting on the desk five hours and a half.

    要在桌子上坐五個半小時。

  • And if you don't, there is going to be a punishments.

    如果你不這樣做,就會有一個懲罰。

  • The schedules will be changed.

    日程表將被改變。

  • You will be on night shift.

    你要上夜班

  • And this is going to affect my wellness time.

    而這是會影響我的健康時間的。

  • I will never take my three hours.

    我永遠不會拿我的三個小時。

  • (dramatic music)

  • - [Casey] What kind of things do they

    - [凱西]什麼樣的事情,他們做的

  • do that make life hard?

    這讓生活變得艱難嗎?

  • - [Moderator] They always have complaints about everyone.

    - 主持人】他們總是對每個人都有抱怨。

  • You know, like, I have something on you.

    你知道,就像,我有你的東西。

  • If you make any problems, you know what?

    如果你有什麼問題,你知道嗎?

  • This is the reason that I can fire you.

    這就是我可以解僱你的原因。

  • - [Casey] Right, right.

    - 對,對

  • - [Moderator] One of the things that they always saying

    - [主持人]他們常說的一句話就是

  • is if we miss one agent tomorrow, we get another 10.

    是如果我們明天錯過一個特工,我們就會得到另外10個。

  • - [Casey] So they're constantly reminding you

    - 所以他們不斷地提醒你...

  • how easily you can be replaced?

    你怎麼能輕易被取代?

  • - [Moderator] Yes.

    - [主持人]是的。

  • The problem that's they feel stuck somewhere.

    問題是他們覺得自己被困在某個地方了。

  • They can't leave the work

    他們不能離開工作

  • because they have responsibilities.

    因為他們有責任。

  • He have bills right now he have to pay.

    他現在有賬單要付。

  • - [Casey] So it sounds like people feel kind of trapped.

    - 所以聽起來人們覺得自己被困住了 So it sounds like people feel kind of trapped.

  • - [Moderator] They are.

    - [主持人]他們是。

  • Yeah, that's a good word.

    是啊,這是個好詞。

  • - When I brought all this to Google,

    - 當我把這一切帶到谷歌。

  • the company told me that it takes the health

    公司告訴我,它把健康

  • of its workers very seriously and pointed out

    認真對待其工人,並指出

  • that it offers onsite counseling to both

    它為雙方提供現場諮詢

  • its full-time employees and to its contractors.

    其全職僱員和承包商。

  • I think it's worth pointing out, though,

    不過我覺得值得指出的是。

  • that even though Daisy had access to that onsite counseling,

    即使黛西可以獲得現場諮詢,

  • the counselor she had ultimately told her

    她最終告訴她的諮詢師

  • to go seek outside help and get a therapist.

    去尋求外界的幫助,找一個治療師。

  • Daisy also eventually took medical leave

    黛西最後也請了病假

  • and ultimately got an emotional support animal to help her.

    並最終找了一隻情感支持動物來幫助她。

  • It's a dog named Stella.

    是一隻叫斯特拉的狗。

  • - Hi five.

    - 嗨,五。

  • Found a psychiatrist and I found a therapist.

    找到了一個心理醫生,我找到了一個治療師。

  • The psychiatrist put me on antidepressants.

    精神病醫生讓我吃抗抑鬱藥。

  • I was diagnosed with chronic anxiety and PTSD.

    我被診斷出患有慢性焦慮症和創傷後應激障礙。

  • And then, I started seeing a therapist just to talk

    然後,我開始看到一個治療師 只是為了說話。

  • through these things and she said,

    通過這些事情,她說。

  • "Is legal removals associate anything close

    "法律搬運協會是否有任何接近

  • "to a content moderator?"

    "對一個內容管理員?"

  • And I said, "It is a content moderator."

    我說:"這是一個內容主持人。"

  • And she said, "Trust me when I say you are not

    她說:"相信我,我說你不是。

  • "the first person that I've seen

    "第一人,我已經看到

  • "with this particular issue."

    "與這個特殊問題。"

  • - It seems like recovering from doing this job

    - 好像是做完這個工作就恢復了

  • has itself been a full time job.

    本身就已經是個全職工作。

  • - Oh, yeah.

    - 哦,是的。

  • Whenever someone talks to me about content moderation,

    每當有人和我談起內容節制時。

  • I say, "I'm a recovering content moderator."

    我說:"我是一個恢復內容的版主。"

  • They're like, "Oh, you talk about it like it's,

    他們會說:"哦,你說的好像。

  • "it's like alcoholism."

    "這就像酗酒。"

  • And I said, "Well, you never fully recover."

    我說,"好吧,你永遠不會完全恢復。"

  • - One of the things that is so interesting to me

    - 其中有一件事讓我很感興趣

  • about your story is that you are one of the very few people

    你的故事是,你是極少數人中的一個。

  • I've talked to who did content moderation as

    我曾和做過內容管理的人聊過,作為

  • a full time employee of a company, rather than a contractor.

    公司的全職僱員,而不是承包商;

  • You had access to six months of paid medical leave.

    你可以享受6個月的帶薪病假。

  • A contractor who's moderating for YouTube in Austin

    一個在奧斯汀為YouTube做主持人的承包商。

  • doesn't have that same access.

    並沒有同樣的權限。

  • - I had those months to think about my choices

    - 我有幾個月的時間來思考我的選擇

  • and to think about ways out without having

    思考出路,而不必

  • to deal with unemployment or having to deal with

    應對失業或不得不處理的問題

  • how am I gonna pay rent.

    我怎麼能支付租金。

  • I know those contractors don't have that opportunity.

    我知道那些承包商沒有這個機會。

  • - The contractors I've talked with in Austin

    - 我和奧斯汀的承包商談過

  • ,are making $18.50 an hour, about $37,000 a year.

    賺取每小時18.5美元,年薪約3.7萬美元。

  • Does that seem like a high enough wage given some

    考慮到一些人的情況,這個工資是否足夠高?

  • of the risks involved?

    所涉及的風險?

  • - Absolutely not.

    - 絕對不是。

  • There's never gonna be enough money to make this okay.

    永遠都不會有足夠的錢來解決這個問題。

  • I'm gonna be clear about that.

    我會說清楚的。

  • But, I think that you need to pay contractors proportional

    但是,我認為你需要按比例支付承包商的工資

  • to what they're going through, the impact of their work,

    到他們所經歷的,他們工作的影響。

  • because this is so vital to the business.

    因為這對企業來說至關重要。

  • - Let's put a fine point on it.

    - 讓我們來細細道來。

  • If Google can't exist without the work that you did, right,

    如果沒有你所做的工作,谷歌就不能存在,對吧。

  • like you were responding to official legal requests

    好像你是在迴應官方的法律要求

  • from governments-- - Yup.

    從政府...

  • - That would have otherwise shut Google down

    - 否則就會讓谷歌關閉

  • in their country-- - Yup.

    在他們的國家 - 是的。

  • - If you didn't respond