Placeholder Image

字幕列表 影片播放

  • Chris Anderson: OK, Stewart,

    克里斯 · 安德森:好,史都華,

  • in the '60s, you -- I think it was '68 -- you founded this magazine.

    60 年代時,大概 1968 年, 你創立了這份雜誌。

  • Stewart Brand: Bravo! It's the original one.

    史都華 · 布蘭德:太棒了! 這是原版的,現在很難找到了。

  • That's hard to find.

    克:是。這是第一期,對吧? 史:是的。

  • CA: Right. Issue One, right?

    克:為什麼它產生了 這麼大的影響力?

  • SB: Mm hmm.

    史:我在那時主要是參與了 反主流文化運動。

  • CA: Why did that make so much impact?

    由嬉皮和新左派組成的 反主流文化運動。

  • SB: Counterculture was the main event that I was part of at the time,

    參與的約是與我同時期的人,

  • and it was made up of hippies and New Left.

    我只比他們年長一點點。

  • That was sort of my contemporaries,

    我的方式是去觀察 有趣的趨勢在哪裡,

  • the people I was just slightly older than.

    然後去看與它相反的方向。

  • And my mode is to look at where the interesting flow is

    克:(笑)

  • and then look in the other direction.

    史:部份原因來自於 我在當陸軍軍官時受的訓練。

  • CA: (Laughs)

    同時也以不費力的啟發方式 來尋找獨創性:

  • SB: Partly, I was trained to do that as an army officer,

    別跟著大家看往同個方向,

  • but partly, it's just a cheap heuristic to find originalities:

    看另外一邊。

  • don't look where everybody else is looking,

    那時反主流文化的狀況是

  • look the opposite way.

    嬉皮們非常浪漫,

  • So the deal with counterculture is, the hippies were very romantic

    有點反現代科技,

  • and kind of against technology,

    除了山德士牌的迷幻藥;

  • except very good LSD from Sandoz,

    而新左派反對現代科技,

  • and the New Left was against technology

    因為他們認為它只是種動力裝置。

  • because they thought it was a power device.

    電腦不能釘、不能對摺、不能切半。

  • Computers were: do not spindle, fold, or mutilate.

    於是就反對它。

  • Fight that.

    所以,《全球目錄》算是 反–反主流文化的東西,

  • And so, the Whole Earth Catalog was kind of a counter-counterculture thing

    在某種意義上我相信 巴克敏斯特 · 富勒的觀點,

  • in the sense that I bought Buckminster Fuller's idea

    就是工具是精華部分。

  • that tools of are of the essence.

    科學和工程師基本上

  • Science and engineers basically define the world in interesting ways.

    用很有趣的方式定義了世界。

  • If all the politicians disappeared one week,

    如果所有的政客消失一個星期

  • it would be ... a nuisance.

    會很麻煩;

  • But if all the scientists and engineers disappeared one week,

    但如果所有的科學家 和工程師消失一星期,

  • it would be way more than a nuisance.

    那情況就遠遠超過麻煩。

  • CA: We still believe that, I think.

    克:我認為現代人仍然相信這個觀點。

  • SB: So focus on that.

    史:所以把焦點放在那上面。

  • And then the New Left was talking about power to the people.

    之後,新左派提出賦權於人民。

  • And people like Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak

    像賈柏斯和史帝夫 · 沃茲尼克這些人,

  • cut that and just said, power to people,

    擷取為賦權於人,

  • tools that actually work.

    工具產生實際效果。

  • And so, where Fuller was saying don't try to change human nature,

    富勒曾說不要試圖改變人類天性,

  • people have been trying for a long time and it does not even bend,

    儘管人們已嘗試了很久, 但人類天性甚至一點也沒變。

  • but you can change tools very easily.

    但要改變工具很容易。

  • So the efficient thing to do if you want to make the world better

    如果你想讓世界變得更好, 那有效的做法

  • is not try to make people behave differently like the New Left was,

    並不是讓人們像新左派那樣 做出奇怪的舉動,

  • but just give them tools that go in the right direction.

    而只需給他們朝向正確方向的工具。

  • That was the Whole Earth Catalog.

    那就是《全球目錄》在探討的。

  • CA: And Stewart, the central image -- this is one of the first images,

    克:史都華,中心的這張圖,

  • the first time people had seen Earth from outer space.

    是人們第一次從外太空 看地球的影像之一。

  • That had an impact, too.

    那也帶來了一次衝擊。

  • SB: It was kind of a chance that in the spring of '66,

    史:那是 1966 年的春天, 那算是種巧合,

  • thanks to an LSD experience on a rooftop in San Francisco,

    我在舊金山的一個屋頂上, 在迷幻藥的作用下,

  • I got thinking about, again, something that Fuller talked about,

    去思考了一句同樣是富勒說過的話,

  • that a lot of people assume that the Earth is flat

    就是許多人假設地球是平的,

  • and kind of infinite in terms of its resources,

    且它的資源是無限的,

  • but once you really grasp that it's a sphere

    但你一旦理解地球是圓的,

  • and that there's only so much of it,

    且資源也是有限的,

  • then you start husbanding your resources

    那麼你就會開始節省使用你的資源,

  • and thinking about it as a finite system.

    而且把它視為是有限的系統。

  • "Spaceship Earth" was his metaphor.

    他用的比喻是「地球號太空船」。

  • And I wanted that to be the case,

    我希望是那樣的,

  • but on LSD I was getting higher and higher on my hundred micrograms

    但伴隨著一百微克的迷幻藥,

  • on the roof of San Francisco,

    我在舊金山的屋頂上變得愈來愈嗨,

  • and noticed that the downtown buildings which were right in front of me

    我注意到我眼前的市區建築

  • were not all parallel, they were sort of fanned out like this.

    不是平行的,它們是如扇形展開的。

  • And that's because they are on a curved surface.

    那是因為它們位在曲面上。

  • And if I were even higher, I would see that even more clearly,

    若我能位於更高的位置, 我就能看得更清楚,

  • higher than that, more clearly still,

    再更高,就再更清楚,

  • higher enough, and it would close,

    足夠高時,曲線就會合起來,

  • and you would get the circle of Earth from space.

    你就會看到從太空看到的圓形地球。

  • And I thought, you know, we've been in space for 10 years --

    我心想,我們已航行太空十年了——

  • at that time, this is '66 --

    那是 1966 年的時候——

  • and the cameras had never looked back.

    太空鏡頭始終沒有往回看。

  • They'd always been looking out or looking at just parts of the Earth.

    它們總是向外看或是 只看地球的某個部分。

  • And so I said, why haven't we seen a photograph of the whole Earth yet?

    所以我問,為何我們仍舊 沒看到完整的地球照片?

  • And it went around and NASA got it and senators, secretaries got it,

    這話就傳開來了,美國太空總署、 議員們、秘書長們都聽到了,

  • and various people in the Politburo got it,

    共產黨中央執行委員會 一些不同的人也聽到了,

  • and it went around and around.

    所以這話就一直傳、一直傳。

  • And within two and a half years,

    在兩年半之內,

  • about the time the Whole Earth Catalog came out,

    大約是《全球目錄》要出版的時候,

  • these images started to appear,

    這些影像開始出現了,

  • and indeed, they did transform everything.

    的確,它們真的改變了一切。

  • And my idea of hacking civilization

    而我對於潛入人類文明的看法是:

  • is that you try to do something lazy and ingenious

    你試著去做漫不經心 且別出心裁的東西,

  • and just sort of trick the situation.

    竟會巧妙轉變整個情況。

  • So all of these photographs that you see --

    所以你們看到的所有這些照片——

  • and then the march for science last week,

    接著是上週的科學遊行抗議,

  • they were carrying these Whole Earth banners and so on --

    他們帶著《全球目錄》的旗幟等等——

  • I did that with no work.

    我不費吹灰之力就做到了。

  • I sold those buttons for 25 cents apiece.

    那些小徽章,我一個賣 25 分錢。

  • So, you know, tweaking the system

    所以,你知道,微調體系,

  • is, I think, not only the most efficient way to make the system go

    依我所見,讓體系以有趣方式運作的

  • in interesting ways,

    不僅僅是最有效率的方式,

  • but in some ways, the safest way,

    在某些情況下,還是最安全的方式,

  • because when you try to horse the whole system around in a big way,

    因為當你試圖以大動作 來調整整個系統時,

  • you can get into big horsing-around problems,

    你就會遇到無法回頭的問題,

  • but if you tweak it, it will adjust to the tweak.

    但如果你只作微調, 系統本身就會自我調整,

  • CA: So since then, among many other things,

    克:所以,那時起, 除了許多其他形象,

  • you've been regarded as a leading voice in the environmental movement,

    你還被視為環境運動的領導者,

  • but you are also a counterculturalist,

    但你也是反主流文化主義者,

  • and recently, you've been taking on a lot of,

    最近,你受到了很多…

  • well, you've been declaring

    就是…由於你聲稱的觀點,

  • what a lot of environmentalists almost believe are heresies.

    你幾乎被許多環境主義者視為異端。

  • I kind of want to explore a couple of those.

    我有點想要探討其中幾個。

  • I mean, tell me about this image here.

    比如說,與我談談這張圖片。

  • SB: Ha-ha!

    史:哈哈!

  • That's a National Geographic image

    那是國家地理雜誌的圖片,

  • of what is called the mammoth steppe,

    圖上的是所謂的長毛象草原,

  • what the far north, the sub-Arctic and Arctic region, used to look like.

    遙遠的北方,亞北極和北極圈 曾經看起來是這個樣子。

  • In fact, the whole world used to look like that.

    事實上,整個世界曾經就是這個樣子。

  • What we find in South Africa and the Serengeti now,

    我們現在在南非及塞倫蓋提所發現的

  • lots of big animals,

    許多大型動物

  • was the case in this part of Canada,

    以前也出現在加拿大的這個區域,

  • throughout the US, throughout Eurasia, throughout the world.

    還有整個美國、整個歐亞大陸、 甚至整個世界。

  • This was the norm

    這就是以前的常態,

  • and can be again.

    它也能再次成為現代的常態。

  • So in a sense,

    就某種意義上來說,

  • my long-term goal at this point is to not only bring back those animals

    現在,我的長期目標 不僅是要帶回這些動物

  • and the grassland they made,

    和當時形成的草地,

  • which could be a climate stabilization system over the long run,

    長程來說這種草地 是種形成氣候穩定的系統,

  • but even the mammoths there in the background

    就連在圖中遠方的那些長毛象,

  • that are part of the story.

    也是我計劃中的的一部分。

  • And I think that's probably a 200-year goal.

    我想,那大概是個需時兩百年的計畫。

  • Maybe in 100, by the end of this century,

    也許一百年,就在這個世紀末,

  • we should be able to dial down the extinction rate

    我們應該能夠降低絕種比率

  • to sort of what it's been in the background.

    到背景中所呈現的樣子。

  • Bringing back this amount of bio-abundance will take longer,

    復活這麼多的生物種類, 會需要更長的時間,

  • but it's worth doing.

    但是這是值得做的。

  • CA: We'll come back to the mammoths,

    克:我們待會再回到長毛象的部分,

  • but explain how we should think of extinctions.

    但可否解釋一下 我們該怎麼看待絕種問題。

  • Obviously, one of the huge concerns right now

    很顯然地, 目前令人擔心的重大問題之一

  • is that extinction is happening at a faster rate than ever in history.

    是生物絕種的速度 比史上任何時期都快。

  • That's the meme that's out there.

    那是一夕之間爆紅的東西。

  • How should we think of it?

    我們該如何看待此事?

  • SB: The story that's out there

    史:大家在說的事情

  • is that we're in the middle of the Sixth Extinction

    是我們正處在第六次大滅絕當中,

  • or maybe in the beginning of the Sixth Extinction.

    或在第六次大滅絕的開端。

  • Because we're in the de-extinction business,

    因為我們正進行反滅絕,

  • the preventing-extinction business with Revive & Restore,

    Revive & Restore (組織名)做的也是預防滅絕,

  • we started looking at what's actually going on with extinction.

    我們開始探究滅絕到底是怎麼回事。

  • And it turns out, there's a very confused set of data out there

    結果顯示,對數據收集有一定難度,

  • which gets oversimplified

    因為數據被過度簡化了,

  • into the narrative of we're becoming ...

    簡化成一種說法,我們正在變成…

  • Here are five mass extinctions that are indicated by the yellow triangles,

    這裡顯示了五次大滅絕, 已用黃色三角形標示出來,

  • and we're now next.

    我們現在就正面臨下一次的大滅絕。

  • The last one there on the far right

    最右邊的最後一次

  • was the meteor that struck 66 million years ago

    是 6600 萬年前, 由隕石撞擊造成的恐龍滅絕。

  • and did in the dinosaurs.

    那麼仿間說法聲稱, 我們即將是下一個隕石。

  • And the story is, we're the next meteor.

    而現狀是這樣的。

  • Well, here's the deal.

    我為這個主題進行了一篇論文研究,

  • I wound up researching this for a paper I wrote,

    物種滅絕的定義是 全世界所有物種的 75%

  • that a mass extinction is when 75 percent of all the species

    都絕跡。

  • in the world go extinct.

    而世界上大約有 550 萬物種,

  • Well, there's on the order of five-and-a-half-million species,

    其中有 150 萬種已知。

  • of which we've identified one and a half million.

    每年人類還會再辨視出 1 萬 4 千種。

  • Another 14,000 are being identified every year.

    外頭有很多生物科學計畫在進行著。

  • There's a lot of biology going on out there.

    從 1500 年起,

  • Since 1500,

    大約有 500 種物種絕跡,

  • about 500 species have gone extinct,

    那你會發現使用 「物種滅絕」這個詞有點奇怪。

  • and you'll see the term "mass extinction" kind of used in strange ways.

    大約一年半前,

  • So there was, about a year and a half ago,

    紐約時報頭版刊登 卡爾季默撰寫的一篇報導,

  • a front-page story by Carl Zimmer in the New York Times,

    「大量研究顯示, 海洋中的物種正滅絕」

  • "Mass Extinction in the Oceans, Broad Studies Show."

    接著你細讀文章, 文中提及自從 1500 年起,

  • And then you read into the article, and it mentions that since 1500,

    海洋中有 15 種物種, 十五種喔,絕種了,

  • 15 species -- one, five -- have gone extinct in the oceans,

    喔,順道一提, 過去五十年間沒有物種絕種。

  • and, oh, by the way, none in the last 50 years.

    再進一步閱讀這個故事,它說:

  • And you read further into the story, and it's saying,

    正在發生中的可怕狀況是

  • the horrifying thing that's going on

    漁業過渡捕撈野生魚類,

  • is that the fisheries are so overfishing the wild fishes,

    造成海洋中魚類數量

  • that it is taking down the fish populations in the oceans

    減少了 38%。

  • by 38 percent.

    那是個很嚴肅的事。

  • That's the serious thing.

    那些物種可能沒有一種會絕種。

  • None of those species are probably going to go extinct.

    所以,寫那個標題的人就只是

  • So you've just put, that headline writer

    按了一個應急按鈕

  • put a panic button

    在這故事上頭,

  • on the top of the story.

    然後誘使你去看的用意,

  • It's clickbait kind of stuff,

    但它僅是在說: 「喔,天啊,開始覺得恐慌吧,

  • but it's basically saying, "Oh my God, start panicking,

    我們即將失去海洋中所有的物種。」

  • we're going to lose all the species in the oceans."

    根本沒有像這樣的事情會發生。

  • Nothing like that is in prospect.

    事實上,當我開始做更細節的研究時,

  • And in fact, what I then started looking into in a little more detail,

    國際自然保護聯盟瀕危物種紅色名錄 顯示有 23,000 種物種

  • the Red List shows about 23,000 species that are considered threatened

    被認為受到某種程度的威脅,

  • at one level or another,

    這些資料來自於 國際自然保護聯盟(IUCN)。

  • coming from the International Union for the Conservation of Nature, the IUCN.

    《自然》雜誌有一篇文章, 調查了野生生命的滅絕,

  • And Nature Magazine had a piece surveying the loss of wildlife,

    文中寫到:

  • and it said,

    「如果所有 23,000 種物種都滅絕

  • "If all of those 23,000 went extinct

    且是在大約下個世紀發生,

  • in the next century or so,

    那絕種速率將會持續數世紀、數千年,

  • and that rate of extinction carried on for more centuries and millennia,

    那麼我們就有可能處於 第六次大滅絕的開端」

  • then we might be at the beginning of a sixth extinction.

    所以,這種說法誇張得過頭了。

  • So the exaggeration is way out of hand.

    但環境學家總是在誇大其詞。

  • But environmentalists always exaggerate.

    那是個問題。

  • That's a problem.

    克:他們可能認為 有道德責任要這麼做,

  • CA: I mean, they probably feel a moral responsibility to,

    因為他們非常在乎他們所研究的東西,

  • because they care so much about the thing that they are looking at,

    而你若不引起點騷動, 可能根本沒有人會理會。

  • and unless you bang the drum for it, maybe no one listens.

    史:每當有人說道德這個、道德那個,

  • SB: Every time somebody says moral this or moral that --

    「道德危害」、「預防原則」,

  • "moral hazard," "precautionary principle" --

    這些詞基本上被 用來抗拒事物。

  • these are terms that are used to basically say no to things.

    克:所以問題並不是 魚類絕種、動物絕種,

  • CA: So the problem isn't so much fish extinction, animal extinction,

    而是魚類繁盛、動物繁盛,

  • it's fish flourishing, animal flourishing,

    某種程度上我們在促進牠們的成長?

  • that we're crowding them to some extent?

    史:是的,我認為我們的確在 促進牠們的成長,且造成了損失。

  • SB: Yeah, and I think we are crowding, and there is losses going on.

    重大的損失由農業引起,

  • The major losses are caused by agriculture,

    所以能改善農業的東西, 基本上會帶來更高密度,

  • and so anything that improves agriculture and basically makes it more condensed,

    和更高產量,

  • more highly productive,

    拜託,基因改造也是,

  • including GMOs, please,

    但即使你想要在市區內做直立式農場,

  • but even if you want to do vertical farms in town,

    包括室內農場,

  • including inside farms,

    所有關於如何在地下室 種植大麻的知識,

  • all the things that have been learned about how to grow pot in basements,

    現在都被應用來在容器內種植蔬菜。

  • is now being applied to growing vegetables inside containers --

    那很棒,那都是好事,

  • that's great, that's all good stuff,

    因為我們主要能做的, 就是節約大自然用地。

  • because land sparing is the main thing we can do for nature.

    人們搬到城市中是好的。

  • People moving to cities is good.

    地貌不太會讓農業破壞是好的。

  • Making agriculture less of a destruction of the landscape is good.

    克:有人在談論回歸物種本性,野化。

  • CA: There people talking about bringing back species, rewilding ...

    首先,野化物種,這些人是怎麼回事?

  • Well, first of all, rewilding species: What's the story with these guys?

    史:哈哈!狼!

  • SB: Ha-ha! Wolves.

    歐洲呢,和先前的論點相連結,

  • Europe, connecting to the previous point,

    可能正處於農田佔地比例的高峰,

  • we're now at probably peak farmland,

    順道一提,就人口方面來說,

  • and, by the way, in terms of population,

    我們孩童的存活率已到了頂峰。

  • we are already at peak children being alive.

    因此,將來的孩童會越來越少。

  • Henceforth, there will be fewer and fewer children.

    人口數量在做最後一次的翻倍,

  • We are in the last doubling of human population,

    人口數可能會達到 90 或 95 億,

  • and it will get to nine, maybe nine and a half billion,

    接著不僅會開始趨緩,還可能會下降,

  • and then start not just leveling off, but probably going down.

    同樣的,農田佔地比正處於高峰,

  • Likewise, farmland has now peaked,

    在歐州,呈現出來現象果之一就是

  • and one of the ways that plays out in Europe

    有很多被廢棄的農田,

  • is there's a lot of abandoned farmland now,

    這些農田馬上就重新變回森林了。

  • which immediately reforests.

    在歐洲,他們不做野生動物廊道,

  • They don't do wildlife corridors in Europe.

    他們不需要, 因為許多農田都相連在一起,

  • They don't need to, because so many of these farms are connected

    重新造就,變成野生動物廊道的叢林,

  • that they've made reforested wildlife corridors,

    例如,狼群就重新回到西班牙。

  • that the wolves are coming back, in this case, to Spain.

    牠們走了好長一段路到荷蘭。

  • They've gotten all the way to the Netherlands.

    熊會回來,山貓會回來。

  • There's bears coming back. There's lynx coming back.

    還有歐洲豺,我之前 完全不知道有這種動物存在。

  • There's the European jackal. I had no idea such a thing existed.

    牠們會從義大利及歐洲其他地方回來。

  • They're coming back from Italy to the rest of Europe.

    而不像這裡,這些都是掠食性動物, 這點蠻有趣的。

  • And unlike here, these are all predators, which is kind of interesting.

    歐洲人歡迎牠們,人們想念牠們。

  • They are being welcomed by Europeans. They've been missed.

    克:違反直覺地, 當你把掠食性動物帶回來,

  • CA: And counterintuitively, when you bring back the predators,

    其實增加了而不是減少

  • it actually increases rather than reduces

    其背後生態系統的多樣性。

  • the diversity of the underlying ecosystem often.

    史:是的,一般來說, 掠食性動物和大型動物,

  • SB: Yeah, generally predators and large animals --

    大型動物和銳牙利爪的大型動物,

  • large animals and large animals with sharp teeth and claws --

    其實對於豐富生態系統是很重要的。

  • are turning out to be highly important for a really rich ecosystem.

    克:這就把我們帶到 這個戲劇般的野化計畫,

  • CA: Which maybe brings us to this rather more dramatic rewilding project

    你也參與其中。

  • that you've got yourself involved in.

    為什麼有人想要把這些 駭人又毛茸茸的的長毛象帶回來?