to 不定詞

Hey, it’s Marie Forleo and you are watching MarieTV, the place to be to create a business

嘿，我是Marie Forleo，您正在收看的是MarieTV，這裡是創造事業的地方。

過去簡單式

and life you love. And today I have a question for you. Do you ever wish that you were more

和你熱愛的生活。今天我有一個問題要問你你是否曾經希望你更

persuasive? Whether you wanna win over a customer service rep or maybe a new client or event

有說服力嗎？無論你是想贏得客戶服務代表，還是想贏得一個新的客戶或活動。

a significant other, being able to influence another person, of course in an honest, ethical

一個重要的人，能夠影響另一個人，當然是在一個誠實的，道德的。

way, is a key to success and my guest today is gonna show us how.

方式，是成功的關鍵，我的客人今天會告訴我們如何。

Bob Burg is a best selling author and speaker on topics vital to the success of today’s

鮑勃-伯格是一位最暢銷的作家和演講者，他的演講主題對當今社會的成功至關重要。

businessperson. Burg is a co-author of “The Go-Giver,” “Go-Givers Sell More,” “It’s

商務人士。伯格是《贈人玫瑰手有餘香》、《贈人玫瑰手更有賣相》、《這是

Not About You,” and “Endless Referrals.” Together his books have sold more than a million

與你無關》、《無盡的推薦》等。他的書一共賣出了超過一百萬本

copies. Bob believes his new book, “Adversaries into Allies: Win People Over Without Manipulation

份。鮑勃相信他的新書《化對手為盟友。贏得人們的青睞而不被操縱

or Coercion,” is by far his most important work yet.

或脅迫》是他迄今為止最重要的作品。

Bob, thank you so much for being here on MarieTV. This is awesome.

鮑勃，非常感謝你能來瑪麗電視。這是真棒。

Marie, I am honored. Thanks for having me.

瑪麗，我很榮幸。謝謝你邀請我。

So I have to say, you wrote one of my favorite books ever, “The Go-Giver.” And I just

所以我不得不說，你寫了一本我最喜歡的書，"贈人玫瑰手有餘香"。我只是

really wanted to thank you for that because it made a huge difference in my personal life

真的要感謝你，因為它使我的個人生活發生了巨大的變化。

and it so resonates with everything that I try and do for myself and everything that

它是如此的共鳴，我試圖為自己做的一切，以及一切

we try and teach on MarieTV, which is to focus on giving rather than getting. So that was

我們在MarieTV上嘗試和教導的，是專注於給予而不是得到。所以這就是

just a little public acknowledgement and if you don't have this book, “The Go-Giver,”

只是一點點的公開承認，如果你沒有'這本書，"Go-Giver，"

you have to get yourself it now. But today we’re gonna focus on your other amazing

你必須讓自己現在。但今天我們要關注的是你的另一個驚人的。

book, and I know you have more than 2, but today we’re going to focus on “Adversaries

書，我知道你有兩個以上的書，但今天我們要關注 "對手"。

into Allies.” This is awesome. “How to Win People Over Without Manipulation or Coercion.”

成盟友。"這是真棒。"如何在沒有操縱或脅迫的情況下贏得人們的信任。"

Now, one of the things that struck me was that you make a real distinction between persuasion

現在，讓我印象深刻的一件事是，你把勸說和說服之間做了一個真正的區分

and manipulation. Can you tell us what that is?

和操縱。你能告訴我們那是什麼嗎？

Yeah. And, you know, I made that point early because it’s a question that’s very natural.

是啊，你知道，我很早就提出了這一點，因為這是個很自然的問題。而且，你知道，我很早就提出了這一點，因為這是一個很自然的問題。

When you think of influence, which is really in a sense what the book is about, influence

當你想到影響力的時候，其實從某種意義上來說，這就是本書的主題，影響

can be defined as simply the ability to move a person or persons to a desired action usually

可以簡單地定義為推動一個人或幾個人採取所需行動的能力，通常是指

within the context of a specific goal. You can do that one of two ways. You could do

在特定目標的背景下。你可以通過兩種方式之一來實現。你可以這樣做

it through manipulating another person or you can do it through persuading another person.

你可以通過操縱他人來實現，也可以通過說服他人來實現。

And really manipulation and persuasion are cousins. Now, one’s the evil cousin. Manipulation’s

而真正的操縱和說服是表兄弟。現在，一個是邪惡的表弟。Manipulation's

Right. The dark cousin. And persuasion’s the good one. But, let’s face it, both the

對了，黑暗的表哥。黑暗的表弟。而勸說是好的。但是，讓我們面對它，這兩個。

manipulator and the persuader, they both understand human interaction. They both understand human

操縱者和說服者，他們都懂得人際交往。他們都瞭解人類

motivation. They understand what makes people tick and what makes people move to action.

動機。他們瞭解是什麼讓人們心動，是什麼讓人們行動起來。

So… but there’s still a big difference and that’s the key. And obviously we don't

所以......但還是有很大的區別，這才是關鍵。顯然，我們不'

encourage people to manipulate, but rather to persuade. One of the best examples or explanations

鼓勵人們去操縱，而是去說服。最好的例子或解釋之一是

of the two, the difference in the two, is from a gentleman by the name of Dr. Paul W.

的，兩者的區別，是來自一位名叫保羅-W-博士的先生。

Swets. He wrote a book back in 1986 entitled, “The Art of Talking So that People Will

Swets。他早在1986年就寫了一本書，名為《說話的藝術，讓人們會。

Listen,” though it was much more about listening than it was about talking. And I thought his

聽。"雖然這比起說話，更多的是聽。而我覺得他的

explanation was great. According to Dr. Swets, manipulation aims at control, not cooperation.

解釋得很好。根據Swets博士的說法，操縱的目的是控制，而不是合作。

It does not consider the good of the other party, it results in a win-lose situation.

它不考慮對方的利益，它的結果是輸贏。

In direct contrast to the manipulator, the persuader always seeks to enhance the self

與操縱者直接相反的是，說服者總是試圖提升自我

esteem of the other party. The result is that people respond better because they’re treated

對方的尊重。其結果是，人們的反應更好，因為他們受到了

as responsible or response-able, self directing individuals. So it begins with intent but

作為負責任的或可迴應的、自我指導的個人。是以，它始於意圖，但

that’s not where it ends. See, both the manipulator and the persuader can elicit immediate

這不是結束的地方。你看，操縱者和勸說者都能立即引出

action, but that’s where it ends because once you know you’ve been manipulated, Marie,

行動，但也就到此為止了，因為一旦你知道自己被操縱了，瑪麗。

you will avoid that person. You’ll do the best you can to resist that person. Even if

你會避免那個人。你會盡你最大的努力去抵抗那個人。即使

you have to work with that person, you’ll do something to not have to be involved in

你必須與他合作，你會做一些事情，以避免捲入

some way. With a persuader though, that’s different. See, a persuader… see, a manipulator

某種方式。但對於一個說服者來說，那就不同了。你看，一個勸說者... ... 你看，一個操縱者。

is win at all costs. They may not want to hurt the other person, but if they have to

是不惜一切代價的贏。他們可能不想傷害對方，但如果他們不得不這樣做

in order to get their way they will. They’re very I focused or me focused. Not the case

為了得到他們的方式，他們將。他們很我專注或我專注。不是這樣的

with the persuader. For them to win the other person also has to win. So when you’ve been

與勸說者。要想讓他們贏，對方也要贏。所以當你已經

persuaded you feel good about that person and you’re more likely to buy into their

說服你對這個人的好感，你更容易相信他們的

Yeah and I love that distinction also that it taps into feelings. It’s like how do

是啊，我也喜歡這種區別，它能讓人感受到。這就像怎麼做

you feel when you’re persuaded? Is it a win-win for both of you?

你覺得當你被說服？是否是雙贏？

And I thought that was… it’s really important because, you know, one of the things that

我想這是... 這真的很重要，因為，你知道，其中一件事是... ...

we’ve discovered and what we do here on MarieTV and in our program B-School, so many

我們發現，我們在MarieTV和我們的B-School節目中所做的事情，那麼多的

people associate sales and marketing or getting your product or your idea out into the world

人們把銷售和市場或把你的產品或你的想法推向世界聯繫起來。

with somehow being pushy or somehow being manipulative.

與莫名其妙地被催促或莫名其妙地被操縱。

Exactly. And it’s just the opposite. And that’s why I was so excited to talk with

正是如此。而這恰恰相反。這就是為什麼我很高興能和你談談

you today because I think this reframing of how to add value in other people’s lives

因為我認為這種重新定義如何在別人的生活中增加價值的方式。

and whenever if we bump up against conflict, which we’re gonna talk about in a few minutes,

如果我們遇到了衝突，我們會在幾分鐘內討論。

how do you deal with that in a way that’s empathetic and compassionate and that leaves

你如何處理的方式 這是一個同情和同情，並離開

both people not only feeling great but it’s actually a true win win for both of them.

兩個人不僅感覺很好，而且實際上是真正的雙贏。

It is. And, Marie, so many people when they go into business and they do something they

是的而且，瑪麗，很多人在做生意的時候，他們做了一些事情，他們

love, they have a product or service they feel so good about and they know they can

愛，他們有一個產品或服務，他們覺得很好，他們知道他們可以。

add value to people’s lives. But they say, “Oh, but I don't wanna sell.” Why? Because

增加價值的人的生活。但他們說，"哦，但我不想賣。"為什麼呢？為什麼？

it’s how they’re defining selling. See, if you look at selling as something you do

這是他們如何定義銷售。你看，如果你把銷售看成是你做的事

to someone, if you define selling as trying to convince somebody to buy something they

如果你把銷售定義為試圖說服別人購買他們的東西，那麼你就可以把它定義為 "銷售"。

don't want or need, who wants to do that? We couldn’t feel good about something like

不要'，也不需要，誰願意這樣做呢？我們不能對這樣的事情有好感

that. Really all selling is at its very… at its basic is simply finding out what somebody

那。真的，所有的銷售都是在其非常... 在其基本的是簡單地發現了什麼人

does want or need and helping them to get it.

That’s what it is. And when you look at it that way you can feel great about it because

就是這樣的。當你這樣看的時候，你會感覺很好，因為...

you know you’re providing a service to that person.

你知道你在為那個人提供服務。

Absolutely. So let’s shift into the five principles that are really the core of the

絕對是這樣的。所以，讓我們轉入五個原則，這才是真正的核心。

book. So let’s start off with principle number one, which is all about being able

書。所以我們先從第一條原則說起，就是要能做到

It’s control your own emotions. The sages of long ago asked who was a mighty person

是控制自己的情緒。昔日聖賢問誰是強者？

and they answered, “That person who can control their own emotions and make of an

他們回答說："那個人能夠控制自己的情緒，並使的。

enemy or a potential enemy a friend.” It all begins with that because, see, until you

敵人或潛在的敵人為朋友。"這一切都從這一點開始，因為，你看，直到你

can… it’s only when you can control your own emotions that you’re able to take a

可以......只有當你能控制自己的情緒時，你才能夠採取一個

potentially negative situation or person and turn it into a win for everyone involved.

潛在的負面情況或個人，並將其轉化為每個人都參與的贏家。

But why is that so difficult? Well, because we’re human beings.

但為什麼這麼難呢？嗯，因為我們是人類。

And as human beings we’re emotional creatures. I would like to think we’re logical, and

而作為人類，我們是情緒化的動物。我想認為我們是有邏輯的，而且...

to a certain extent we are, but really we are emotion driven. We make major decisions

在某種程度上，我們是，但實際上我們是情感驅動。我們做出重大決定

based on emotion and we back up those emotional decisions with logic. We rationalize. And

基於情感，我們用邏輯來支持這些情感的決定。我們合理化。而

if you take that word it means we tell ourselves rational lies and we do that in order to justify

如果你用這個詞，它的意思是我們告訴自己理性的謊言 我們這樣做是為了證明自己是合理的。

that emotional decision. Well, there’s also… emotion also comes into play when you just

情感的決定。 - 嗯，還有...好了，還有... 情感也進入發揮作用的時候，你只是... ...

feel lousy about something. Now, we know nobody can make us feel bad or angry or sad or mad,

感覺糟糕的東西。現在，我們知道沒有人可以讓我們感覺到不好或憤怒或悲傷或瘋狂。

but what they can do is they can either intentionally or usually unintentionally do things that

但他們能做的是，他們可以有意或通常無意地做一些事情。

push our buttons and cause ourselves to become mad or angry or sad or what have you. And

按下我們的按鈕，使我們自己變得瘋狂或憤怒或悲傷或什麼的。而

when we allow ourself to be controlled by that we can’t be part of the solution by

當我們允許自己被控制時，我們就不能成為解決方案的一部分，通過

the very nature of the thing. We become part of the problem and things don't work out.

事情的本質。我們成了問題的一部分，事情就不會有結果。

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